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WPF Day II

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WPF Day II - Fri Nov 08, 2002, 01:51 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
Thursday, October 31st...
Halloween...
I am up early to attend to some non-poker related
business. I don't think there is a Forum category
that is appropriate for it yet, so I guess I can't say
anything about it. I will just note that it was a
beautiful day for a ride on the ferry...

Back at Foxwoods, I take the afternoon to try to sleep.
I have only slept about 4 hours in the past two days, and
I don't feel in any condition to play poker right away.

When I do get over to the casino, I once again look at the
money games upstairs, but the lists are hopelessly long and
none of the available games look any good, so I head down
to the tournament room.
Now it is almost time for the evening supersat, and I'm thinking,
why not go for it? Instead of trying to win $500 in a single table
event, why not play for 10k? After you have won a seat,
if you win again you get paid in negotiable lammers.
So, off we go with slightly fewer starters than the night before.
This time I take my rebuy immediately. I am playing my "A"
game tonight. If that means going out early when I think I
have the best of it, so be it...
As it happens, this tournament goes pretty smoothly for me.
I am able to show a few good hands that are winners and this
allows me to take some pots without good hands.
The only time I made a tough decision that would have crippled
me if my read was wrong happened like this:
I call a small bet with AT of hearts in late position. It is headsup
and the flop comes 10 6 5. The original bettor goes all-in!
Now, I don't think he's hit a set... he would have tried to trap
me. I don't think he has an overpair... he would have bet more
preflop. Two pair is out of the question. I think he either has
a worse 10 or 78 sooted. So I put my chips in the middle and
hold my breath.... He had A6 soooted!! I'm not sure what he
was trying to represent, as his bet seemed wrong for anything.

I go to the final table with 38k... slight chip leader. I actually
build a big lead, but just as we get to four handed I give a
lot of it back and as the 4 of us leave the table (The satellite
director had said, "No break... ok, take 5 minutes" as we
walked away) I have 2nd stack with about 40k. The stacks
were close enough that nobody was a prohibitive favorite,
but the big stack did have considerably more than the other
three of us.

In the hallway we openly discuss a deal, which as I said was
expressly prohibited by the tournament officials.
The prize breakdown was like this:
1st $10,200 seat in the main event
2nd $5,000 cash (lammers)
3rd $2,500 cash
4th $1,500 cash

2 of us already had seats. One of the others really wanted a
seat and the other didn't care.

After several minutes of exploring proposals and counter-
proposals, and nearly deciding to not make any deal at all,
we settled on this:

Big stack takes $5,700 and the rest of us take $4,500 each,
and we let the player who wants the seat win the satellite.

I am VERY tired. One of the obvious things I overlooked was
that it didn't matter if I won satellite, because I would have
gotten paid in lammers! Actually, we were all pretty tired,
and watching us blatantly trying to manipulate the game so
a particular player won, but not being sure how to do it just
right must have been hilarious! The TD kept telling us not
to TALK about what we were doing, but he had no interest
in stopping us. We eventually got it done.
My motivation was simple. I needed the cash, and I wanted
to be sure it was more than $1,500.

Two questions:
1) What do people think about the ethics of the whole thing?
2) Was the deal I made a good one?

I will say more about my own stance on ethics after others
have had a chance to respond. ...aloha
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 08:09 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
Quote:
Two questions:
1) What do people think about the ethics of the whole thing?
2) Was the deal I made a good one?
Good questions!

I believe that the "secret" deal should never have happened. In fact the entire situation deteriorated into final 4 collusion, but it was NOT the players fault, blame the house for creating the problem.

Why did the house not allow deal making? I don't get out to the casinos much nowadays, but on the east coast dealmaking is a way of life for the trudging poker player. It adds a twist to the game, is fun and profitable!

Foxwoods should never make a rule they are unable to enforce, even if the rule stinks. If they are not going all the way in enforcing the no deal making rule, then why did they make it? Makes no sense to me, but I am sure one of my esteem school mates will enlighten me.

In addition, the floor person knew it was happening and judging by his discreetness, didn't think much of the rule either.

Yes, I danced around the questions Huk asked, but I strongly believe the house created the awkward situation and the players dealt with it in the same manner that they have for decades.

James G

PS #2 Without question.... the deal was good for you.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 09:39 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
In my near-forgotten past a friend of mine (Margo St. James) who was a prostitute decided to start a "hookers' union" in San Francisco. A close mutual pal, the late bard John Stephens, came up with an acronymic name for it that became the stuff of which legends are made: COYOTE ("Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics").

During my time in the cockfighting world, deals were a way of life although they were called "hedge bets" - when you were near the money in a tournament you bet against your own rooster to act as insurance against realism - your chicken could indeed be beat even though all trainers loudly declaimed "there ain't a rooster in the world this one can't kill!"

So the ethics of even making a deal, especially a proscribed one is hypocritical on both ends: who made the rule AND who made the deal.

Financially you made a great deal. Theoretically (in some ideal non-existent world) you should have lodged your protest against the rule rather than just winking your way around the rule. I'd have no more trouble with my conscience in this case than I would bribing a Mexican traffic cop.

I still think it's somewhat a flaw in all our characters, however. In the end pragmatism transcends "hono(u)r".
 
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 10:44 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by geezer
In my near-forgotten past a friend of mine (Margo St. James) who was a prostitute decided to start a "hookers' union" in San Francisco. A close mutual pal, the late bard John Stephens, came up with an acronymic name for it that became the stuff of which legends are made: COYOTE ("Call Off Your Old Tired Ethics").

During my time in the cockfighting world...
Man, I live a boring, unremarkable life.

For whatever (stupid, IMO) reason, they forbid deal making. Assuming that was well publicized going in, I think everyone should respect the rule and play it out.
 
Old
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 03:30 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Tough one here.

However, it is all your money, and you should be able to make whatever deal you can with your money.

Randy
 
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Fri Nov 08, 2002, 04:47 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Quote:
However, it is all your money, and you should be able to make whatever deal you can with your money.
Actually, the money came (mostly) from players who busted out earlier and they played with the understanding that there was a rule against deal-making else they might not have entered (now there's a far-fetched idea!). Ethically, if I grow my own and don't sell it, I might deliberately violate a law against posessing it using as my ethical copout that my interpretation of the constitution transcends that of some judges.

In the instant case, the proscription on deal-making was clearly cosmetic, but the participants knew of it beforehand and tacitly agreed thereto. I THINK I would have said "no deal", but I wasn't there. I don't think Huk's "ethical transgression" was much different than mine when driving 60 in a 55 zone, but it's still unethical.
 

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