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To Dan Re: Global League

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To Dan Re: Global League - Tue Jun 28, 2011, 04:42 PM
(#1)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
Hey Dave, please try to start..PSO-Staff is reviewing this and acknowledging all the concerns and suggestions to the new set up. If you don't voice your concerns, then you can't complain down the road.
And I still stand by my statement. Since pso started last year, members have requested a tiered league. Now like staff says, it may take just a little time to get things smooth, but it is indeed a welcome change for most I would think.
Dan I've responded outside the thread as it is in the most part off that topic.

If I felt that this move had been made due to listening to members suggestions and concerns I would semi-welcome it, the truth is that PSO was no longer financially viable due to "Black Friday", the numbers simply didn't stack up and as was predicted soon after the loss of US players the only viable option if it was to continue was to merge the Leagues.

I recall PSO Staff commenting in a thread from a member regard creating a tiered League structure by saying it had been considered but was believed to be unworkable and creating far more problems than it would solve, I can't put my hands on the thread and to be honest haven't got the time or inclination to trawl through the morass to find it, strange though that now when financial circumstances dictate the idea is viable.

If they were that committed to "listening to members" they would have followed up on their promise to use the suggestion box as a sounding board and provide feedback, perhaps then they could have aired their idea on the new League structure and obtained suggestions and feedback on it, that is what listening to members is actually about.

I find it hypocritical that whilst remaining silent on so many "real" issues that members have raised in this forum in the past PSO Staff are now falling over themselves to answer any post in this thread from members who have swallowed the "red pill" or do they only selectively listen to members?

Whilst I know I'm now viewed as a cynical doom sayer I've seen enough to make me sceptical as to the motives behind any changes that are made here, one of the the crowning glories to this one is the cranking up of the "reward the spenders", pay more to those who can afford to feed PS with rake and buy-ins getting their 150+ VPP's. For me this emphasises exactly what all this is about and veiling it behind it as being "giving the members what they want" is to be frank an insult to the intelligence of the membership.

I won't hold my breath waiting for the PSO announcement on how they intend to deal with the poor standards of etiquette, cheating, collusion and general anything goes attitude within the league which has been yet another major issue on which PSO have remained silent because if you thought it was bad before I reckon the Forum will need a whole new sub-section once the new league kicks off. Then again the PSO believes the behaviour of its members isn't its concern and as the Open League Tournaments will have every Freeroll rider in town in them and they won't be PSO members they can safely wring their hands and play "Pontius Pilate" to that one.

Dan you know that when I became active in this forum I was more than prepared to engage and put forward pro-active ideas that I felt would help this School fulfill its vast potential, it is not that I am I no longer willing or capable of doing so, it is the fact that I have learned rapidly that sowing seed on unfertile soil is not a productive use of time or energy.
 
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the Ace King Pro - Tue Jun 28, 2011, 04:58 PM
(#2)
gmanwicksy's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 861
and his starting hand cards was the loudest voice I can remember on the tiered league issue at first but he did have his followers as well.

At least they chose to amalgamate the leagues instead of cancelling this one,,....plus,,,I might actually start to play in it again,,,,

 
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Tue Jun 28, 2011, 08:25 PM
(#3)
Swaxwell's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 315
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogweed1964 View Post
Dan I've responded outside the thread as it is in the most part off that topic.

If I felt that this move had been made due to listening to members suggestions and concerns I would semi-welcome it, the truth is that PSO was no longer financially viable due to "Black Friday", the numbers simply didn't stack up and as was predicted soon after the loss of US players the only viable option if it was to continue was to merge the Leagues.

I recall PSO Staff commenting in a thread from a member regard creating a tiered League structure by saying it had been considered but was believed to be unworkable and creating far more problems than it would solve, I can't put my hands on the thread and to be honest haven't got the time or inclination to trawl through the morass to find it, strange though that now when financial circumstances dictate the idea is viable.

If they were that committed to "listening to members" they would have followed up on their promise to use the suggestion box as a sounding board and provide feedback, perhaps then they could have aired their idea on the new League structure and obtained suggestions and feedback on it, that is what listening to members is actually about.

I find it hypocritical that whilst remaining silent on so many "real" issues that members have raised in this forum in the past PSO Staff are now falling over themselves to answer any post in this thread from members who have swallowed the "red pill" or do they only selectively listen to members?

Whilst I know I'm now viewed as a cynical doom sayer I've seen enough to make me sceptical as to the motives behind any changes that are made here, one of the the crowning glories to this one is the cranking up of the "reward the spenders", pay more to those who can afford to feed PS with rake and buy-ins getting their 150+ VPP's. For me this emphasises exactly what all this is about and veiling it behind it as being "giving the members what they want" is to be frank an insult to the intelligence of the membership.

I won't hold my breath waiting for the PSO announcement on how they intend to deal with the poor standards of etiquette, cheating, collusion and general anything goes attitude within the league which has been yet another major issue on which PSO have remained silent because if you thought it was bad before I reckon the Forum will need a whole new sub-section once the new league kicks off. Then again the PSO believes the behaviour of its members isn't its concern and as the Open League Tournaments will have every Freeroll rider in town in them and they won't be PSO members they can safely wring their hands and play "Pontius Pilate" to that one.

Dan you know that when I became active in this forum I was more than prepared to engage and put forward pro-active ideas that I felt would help this School fulfill its vast potential, it is not that I am I no longer willing or capable of doing so, it is the fact that I have learned rapidly that sowing seed on unfertile soil is not a productive use of time or energy.

Bogweed, I agree that it is obvious that the PSO is just a feeder entity to increase revenue for Stars. I also agree that 150 VPPs is extracting the urine just a lil bit. What do you expect from a profit driven company? BUT I still think that a tiered league still has the potential to be a very good thing. I also think that the PSO offers a good service for the money I choose to invest in it.
 
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Tue Jun 28, 2011, 08:37 PM
(#4)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
The 150 minimum for the premiere league is semi steep.. you will have to be a serious player, not a free roller to get those points.. you will probably need at least a $50 starting bankroll at minimum to scrape by on it.. PS is a business, and they are in it to make money (nothing wrong with that) I think the premiere league is here hoping to make more people deposit and I have no problem with it.

I just hope people dont blow their entire bankrolls trying to get vpp,s instead of improving and using proper bankroll mgt
 
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Tue Jun 28, 2011, 08:48 PM
(#5)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Dave, you are indeed a very positive contributor to the community. You've helped me in the past and I'm very appreciative.
Nothing wrong with you voicing your concerns at all.
Like the others said, it is a business and their goal is to make money.

I would rather not comment on the rest right now, but rather let Staff if they choose to.
I just wanted you to know that I'm needing educated on all this like the rest of the community is..and hopefully then I can give good insight to new members and maybe I can help some of you veterans too.
When we have all the info, and Staff and Admin have had a chance to review everything and put the final pieces into place, I think most will approve.
At the very least, there is progress.
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 01:22 AM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Big heads up Bog(Dave), a man of true integrity. It sure gets tiring sowing seed on fallow ground; I am giving up too Dave and joining the ranks of the disaffected. See you on the other side.

TC
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 05:48 AM
(#7)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Hmm. And hmm.

I'm surprised that kwik1's not already been in here to tell you how undeserving you are. He'd pay an entry feee to be able to take part in something like this
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 10:03 AM
(#8)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swaxwell View Post
....... I also think that the PSO offers a good service for the money I choose to invest in it.
It's not fair to bring a sense of value into this.




I am amazed at the fact that people are not just looking in the gift horse's mouth, but that they climb right in to get a good count of teeth.
Know that I have much respect for our members. But I am without doubt over the vast numbers of players who join pso for whatever reason...and start to become winning players who learn how to manage their bankroll.
Just look at my pitiful stats. Before pso I was one of the worst. I'll admit it with no problem. Even now my roi still shows negative..but along with needing to learn how to play a bit better, that was because I never deposited and just spent the few bucks I'd make in freerolls on mtt's with no idea on how to manage myself or the bankroll. Both of which were learned here. After pso..my cash game improved vastly and that is what I mainly play.
How many others are the same? How many continued to play and play freerolls, only to make no progress?...never building a bankroll, much less learning how to keep from going broke? How many continued to play without ever making even one acquaintance who helped to make the game more enjoyable on a social level?
Seriously...I'd like to hear..what was your experience like on pokerstars before pso, and what is it like after?
If you didn't learn things, make some free money, and develop some great friendships, then either you just didn't try, or poker is not for you. Plain and simple.

It's been a year. The attitude of most is what keeps us around. No program is perfect..but it without doubt is the best of what's available. I've always said, it's the community that is the outstanding thing about pso. Not the format, not the rules, maybe a bunch is the money, ..but it primarily is the synergy developed here...how we all help each other to become better.

I hope we can all remember the first time we learned about pso and thought..hey I can win some good money here, and hopefully learn a thing or two..this should be fun!

I'll sign off on the topic with this..there is no doubt that thousands of people benefit from the program....in more than one way. This is from me as just a player like all of you..not as a coordinator..just a player.

Dano

Last edited by !!!111Dan; Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 10:05 AM..
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 12:55 PM
(#9)
Bones31271's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 280
+1 Dan
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 03:16 PM
(#10)
Herkstwin's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 255
Dan, you pose a lot of questions, too many for this old gaffer to answer, but in a nutshell:
- I am older than dirt and only started playing poker six years ago.
- Early on, in home games, I knew nothing and lost more than I won.
- Then I started to read - a little here, a little there.
- I started on PokerStars 4 years ago, playing freerolls.
- I have never made a deposit and never will.
- My bankroll began to grow with a few small wins here and there in the freerolls.
- I joined PSO last September, 2010.
- There are some amazing, helpful, friendly people in the PSO community.
- Through the PSO materials, and the league games, I have gradually improved my game.
- I now earn enough money on PokerStars to pay for SOME of the electricity to run my laptop!

PSO has been an interesting way for me to pass my time in the evenings, playing one (sometimes two) tourneys a day, while watching TV. I enjoy the commraderie and the challenge.

It will be interesting to see how the new format plays out. I am not thrilled about needing 150 VPP's for the top rung, but may give it a shot once things get rolling.

Good Luck to everyone on the felt.

Herk
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 04:34 PM
(#11)
De Hitman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
It's not fair to bring a sense of value into this.




I am amazed at the fact that people are not just looking in the gift horse's mouth, but that they climb right in to get a good count of teeth.
Know that I have much respect for our members. But I am without doubt over the vast numbers of players who join pso for whatever reason...and start to become winning players who learn how to manage their bankroll.
Just look at my pitiful stats. Before pso I was one of the worst. I'll admit it with no problem. Even now my roi still shows negative..but along with needing to learn how to play a bit better, that was because I never deposited and just spent the few bucks I'd make in freerolls on mtt's with no idea on how to manage myself or the bankroll. Both of which were learned here. After pso..my cash game improved vastly and that is what I mainly play.
How many others are the same? How many continued to play and play freerolls, only to make no progress?...never building a bankroll, much less learning how to keep from going broke? How many continued to play without ever making even one acquaintance who helped to make the game more enjoyable on a social level?
Seriously...I'd like to hear..what was your experience like on pokerstars before pso, and what is it like after?
If you didn't learn things, make some free money, and develop some great friendships, then either you just didn't try, or poker is not for you. Plain and simple.

It's been a year. The attitude of most is what keeps us around. No program is perfect..but it without doubt is the best of what's available. I've always said, it's the community that is the outstanding thing about pso. Not the format, not the rules, maybe a bunch is the money, ..but it primarily is the synergy developed here...how we all help each other to become better.

I hope we can all remember the first time we learned about pso and thought..hey I can win some good money here, and hopefully learn a thing or two..this should be fun!

I'll sign off on the topic with this..there is no doubt that thousands of people benefit from the program....in more than one way. This is from me as just a player like all of you..not as a coordinator..just a player.

Dano
Hey Dan.
Spot-On, A lot of what you say here resembles most and id probably guess more than 50% of the players that participate in this league. Me included, as up until March of this year, which is when i joined PSO. all i used to do was play in freerolls, that's how i learnt how to play the game a few years back, and like you id make a few $ or cents here or there, and at first id blow it on the ring cash games quicker than id earned it. Then I got the hang of how to BR, and from 0 $'s I accumulated just over $100 playing 0.01/0.02c ring tables and 10c SnG's in a couple of months. But I Blew the lot in 10 mins at a high stake table. Then went on a 6 month break from playing any poker and returned at the beginning of this year and played a couple of months in the UK League before i found PSO again, I originally became a member when it started but didn't realise it was a league at first and thought it was a freeroll with 1,000s of players playing for $10, I think I played a couple of games before i went back to playing my usual freerolls for the weekly tickets. Then in March I think, i read some were on here about the PSO league and thought wow this looks great. And low and behold a couple of months later i win $1500. and now with the skills iv'e learned here and the knowledge im getting of some of the great players here at PSO I might manage to build a decent BR, as my ROI as it stands is probably terrible, Along with that iv'e met some really nice people here, there's some great characters, people from all over the world who i would never of had the chance of talking to.
 
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Thu Jun 30, 2011, 03:20 PM
(#12)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
Hmm. And hmm.

I'm surprised that kwik1's not already been in here to tell you how undeserving you are. He'd pay an entry feee to be able to take part in something like this
Maybe Kwik would have been happier to see acknowledgment of his membership and existence here by the introduction of a Play Money League within the new structure so that the vast majority of members of the PSO who are from US would still have been able to participate in some way and still feel that their membership here was at least acknowledged and at most valued.

If I am underserving for seeing beyond personal and corporate gain fair enough, if I am underserving because of injunctions placed on access to online poker of US Ctizens by the US DoJ then fair enough, if I am underserving because of the abandonment of US members by PSO then fair enough, if so I am guilty as charged .

Just remember next time you're in a restaraunt and the food and service is terrible, don't complain, there are starving people all over the world.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 07:22 AM
(#13)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Firstly apologies that this post is a bit late; it was meant to be posted last Wednesday but events beyond my control made it only possible to post it today. It is unedited and was meant as my final post, but I have maybe two more to make before the final one, which I considered not posting at all but in hindsight and having reread it many times, it will indeed be posted


Thanks TC


I will respond firstly to Darkman’s point: it has nothing to with being undeserving and whether Kwik would participate or not is neither here nor there. The point bogweed is making, and with which I tend to agree, is that the new league system has been implemented without a great deal of thought, discussion or consultation. Secondly, the core issues surrounding, cheating, collusion and bad etiquette have been conveniently swept under the carpet in the “euphoria” of the new setup.

How is it undeserving to express that opinion? I personally have no difficulties with a tiered league. My one reservation is that the payout structure for the premier league for those earning more than 20VPP but less than 150VPP, with a prizepool of 3000$ and a top prize of 500$, makes it more profitable to go back down to the Open League. That is something that you have already opined yourself, so maybe you are “undeserving” as well

In the other thread PSO staff asked why someone would want to lose? The answer is that the current setup it makes it a move of value and profit to do so.

And now to Dan, hi there.

Sometimes it is a good idea to look a horse in the mouth. Did you know the signs of neglecting a horse’s mouth include avoidance of the bit, head tossing, poor performance, behavioural problems and poor conditioning? It is not only to check the age of the animal.

I like the horse analogy Dan because we can decide if we are dealing with a carthorse or a thoroughbred.

I have documented my experience pre and post PSO many times. I have praised the site to high heaven and the people who have helped me along the way. I have learnt a great deal and put what I have learnt into practise. I believe I am a positive contributor to the forum and go out of my way to offer the same advice to others that was given to me. However, do you really think it would be sensible of me to jettison all I have learnt, discard all my bankroll management rules, play outside the game level I am capable of, in order to qualify for the 150 VPP prizes? Off course it wouldn’t!!!

That is the sort of game I was playing before I joined PSO and I am not going back to that.

I earn my 20 or 30 VPPs with no cost to myself, indeed it funds the odd tourney or SNG as well but I know I am not ready to multitable and I have no intention of spending 30 or 40 hours a month to gain the required VPPs. I will move up when it is viable for me to do so. That is just common sense.

I read here at the end of every month about people’s bankrolls being low or bust, and to me that is just not winning poker. Encouraging people who do not even have the basics down pat to aim for higher VPPs is irresponsible in my opinion; it is definitely not promoting responsible gaming and will not make them better players over all. Futhermore, it is short term, short sighted and counter productive in terms of generating long term rake. Lots of players who are steadily improving will find the “cost” of exiting a freeroll Open League to the Premier League too high, especially if the prize structure is weighted to the 150VPP players. If players are actually taught to become better at poker and bankroll management and move up the levels in line with their abilities they will generate much more rake for Pokerstars in the longer term. I simply do not understand how PSO admin, staff and Pokerstars are incapable of taking that point on board. As bog says, the school is simply not fulfilling its vast potential; it is a carthorse, not a racehorse.

Let’s finish off with some numbers Dan, as I believe your estimations of 1000s benefiting from the program may be a bit off.

Five and half thousand people played in the PSO League last month, we can agree on that one. How many of that number contribute or are active in the PSO forum? How many do not realise that PSO even exists? Somewhere along the line, the message about PSO is not being promoted or delivered properly. There is I would estimate a core community here of about a 100 people. I have witnessed days where there was not even a post made, and posting on a thread was like talking to myself.

How many out of the five and half thousand playing do you think are making a living from poker? How much rake are they generating and probably more importantly how much could they be generating if the program got it right? And that is the reason that I constantly harp on about this stuff because I feel that I owe PSO something. I am not playing devil’s advocate, I am putting forward suggestions that I believe will benefit PSO and its membership. A win, win for everyone.

No one can say that I have no tried to put my point across, but it has got to the juncture where I am frustrated and angry that my contributions are simply dismissed or poo pooed without any discussion. PSO has a plan and they are going to execute that plan no matter what I or anyone else says.

So, it is with regret, that I take my leave of the forum. I am fed up wasting my time and my breath, and both commodities are too valuable to me to consume needlessly. I will still play the League on my own rationale, determined by my bankroll, and with a common sense approach. I may surprise some and be near the top of the leaderboard before the year is out. I will remain in touch with the people I have met and use the resources available here to improve my game. I will have a lot more time to attend live training rather than posting here. The Drunk Tank will be my usual Friday night haunt when the summer break is over.

I would like to give a big thank you to PSO and all the people who have helped me here. To those I clashed horns with, thank you as well; it is all part of the rich tapestry that is life.

Good luck to one and all, and remember, if you are doing anything, do it for value….

TC
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 07:38 AM
(#14)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogweed1964 View Post
Just remember next time you're in a restaurant and the food and service is terrible, don't complain, there are starving people all over the world.
This particular restaurant doesn't charge for the hors d'oeuvre. If you fancy a main course all it asks is that you do a little washing up. Granted, if you also want desert you have to do some proper work, but is that too much to ask?

And yes. In our world those starving people are now called Americans. And they would jump at the opportunity to do a little graft.

Oh. And finally. If you find a better restaurant please let me know. I've looked everywhere and haven't come across one yet.

Last edited by Darkman61; Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 07:42 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 07:58 AM
(#15)
De Hitman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
This particular restaurant doesn't charge for the hors d'oeuvre. If you fancy a main course all it asks is that you do a little washing up. Granted, if you also want desert you have to do some proper work, but is that too much to ask?

And yes. In our world those starving people are now called Americans. And they would jump at the opportunity to do a little graft.

Oh. And finally. If you find a better restaurant please let me know. I've looked everywhere and haven't come across one yet.
Have you tried McDonalds they do a lovely cheese burger
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 10:39 AM
(#16)
ronh1967's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Firstly apologies that this post is a bit late; it was meant to be posted last Wednesday but events beyond my control made it only possible to post it today. It is unedited and was meant as my final post, but I have maybe two more to make before the final one, which I considered not posting at all but in hindsight and having reread it many times, it will indeed be posted


Thanks TC


I will respond firstly to Darkman’s point: it has nothing to with being undeserving and whether Kwik would participate or not is neither here nor there. The point bogweed is making, and with which I tend to agree, is that the new league system has been implemented without a great deal of thought, discussion or consultation. Secondly, the core issues surrounding, cheating, collusion and bad etiquette have been conveniently swept under the carpet in the “euphoria” of the new setup.

How is it undeserving to express that opinion? I personally have no difficulties with a tiered league. My one reservation is that the payout structure for the premier league for those earning more than 20VPP but less than 150VPP, with a prizepool of 3000$ and a top prize of 500$, makes it more profitable to go back down to the Open League. That is something that you have already opined yourself, so maybe you are “undeserving” as well

In the other thread PSO staff asked why someone would want to lose? The answer is that the current setup it makes it a move of value and profit to do so.

And now to Dan, hi there.

Sometimes it is a good idea to look a horse in the mouth. Did you know the signs of neglecting a horse’s mouth include avoidance of the bit, head tossing, poor performance, behavioural problems and poor conditioning? It is not only to check the age of the animal.

I like the horse analogy Dan because we can decide if we are dealing with a carthorse or a thoroughbred.

I have documented my experience pre and post PSO many times. I have praised the site to high heaven and the people who have helped me along the way. I have learnt a great deal and put what I have learnt into practise. I believe I am a positive contributor to the forum and go out of my way to offer the same advice to others that was given to me. However, do you really think it would be sensible of me to jettison all I have learnt, discard all my bankroll management rules, play outside the game level I am capable of, in order to qualify for the 150 VPP prizes? Off course it wouldn’t!!!

That is the sort of game I was playing before I joined PSO and I am not going back to that.

I earn my 20 or 30 VPPs with no cost to myself, indeed it funds the odd tourney or SNG as well but I know I am not ready to multitable and I have no intention of spending 30 or 40 hours a month to gain the required VPPs. I will move up when it is viable for me to do so. That is just common sense.

I read here at the end of every month about people’s bankrolls being low or bust, and to me that is just not winning poker. Encouraging people who do not even have the basics down pat to aim for higher VPPs is irresponsible in my opinion; it is definitely not promoting responsible gaming and will not make them better players over all. Futhermore, it is short term, short sighted and counter productive in terms of generating long term rake. Lots of players who are steadily improving will find the “cost” of exiting a freeroll Open League to the Premier League too high, especially if the prize structure is weighted to the 150VPP players. If players are actually taught to become better at poker and bankroll management and move up the levels in line with their abilities they will generate much more rake for Pokerstars in the longer term. I simply do not understand how PSO admin, staff and Pokerstars are incapable of taking that point on board. As bog says, the school is simply not fulfilling its vast potential; it is a carthorse, not a racehorse.

Let’s finish off with some numbers Dan, as I believe your estimations of 1000s benefiting from the program may be a bit off.

Five and half thousand people played in the PSO League last month, we can agree on that one. How many of that number contribute or are active in the PSO forum? How many do not realise that PSO even exists? Somewhere along the line, the message about PSO is not being promoted or delivered properly. There is I would estimate a core community here of about a 100 people. I have witnessed days where there was not even a post made, and posting on a thread was like talking to myself.

How many out of the five and half thousand playing do you think are making a living from poker? How much rake are they generating and probably more importantly how much could they be generating if the program got it right? And that is the reason that I constantly harp on about this stuff because I feel that I owe PSO something. I am not playing devil’s advocate, I am putting forward suggestions that I believe will benefit PSO and its membership. A win, win for everyone.

No one can say that I have no tried to put my point across, but it has got to the juncture where I am frustrated and angry that my contributions are simply dismissed or poo pooed without any discussion. PSO has a plan and they are going to execute that plan no matter what I or anyone else says.

So, it is with regret, that I take my leave of the forum. I am fed up wasting my time and my breath, and both commodities are too valuable to me to consume needlessly. I will still play the League on my own rationale, determined by my bankroll, and with a common sense approach. I may surprise some and be near the top of the leaderboard before the year is out. I will remain in touch with the people I have met and use the resources available here to improve my game. I will have a lot more time to attend live training rather than posting here. The Drunk Tank will be my usual Friday night haunt when the summer break is over.

I would like to give a big thank you to PSO and all the people who have helped me here. To those I clashed horns with, thank you as well; it is all part of the rich tapestry that is life.

Good luck to one and all, and remember, if you are doing anything, do it for value….

TC
i envy top for not playing over top off your bank roll,buy also reading this post i agree with every thing your saying,there are alot off people going broke or having smaller bankrolls buy trying to go for the 150vpps,i wanna wish you good luck in the future top
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 11:53 AM
(#17)
dR3am3R59's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 110
I am thankful for everything you gave to this community, TC, and I hope your decision is not final. If it is, I know you will be missed. Maybe not by the majority of people here, but as it's been emphasized these days it's the quality that matters.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 12:22 PM
(#18)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronh1967 View Post
i envy top for not playing over top off your bank roll,buy also reading this post i agree with every thing your saying,there are alot off people going broke or having smaller bankrolls buy trying to go for the 150vpps,i wanna wish you good luck in the future top
As a newbie here I do have to agree with Top in a big way. I was thankfully drawn out of the play money tables and into the PSO by one of our American members, blee013. Never met the fella, he just found me at the play tables and suggested I look up PSO. Not sure if he thought I had potential to be better or I REALLY needed to learn!!

As a guy who loves to learn what a resource this is!!! Massive amount of learning material here, but most important the people actively trying to help us new dumdums. Understanding hand strength, betting styles, bankroll management and sooo much more.

Huge example of my learning curve was in my second month, June. Three weeks of being in the top ten and then I started fading badly. With the help of the people to one of my posts here, I figured out, finally, that I went from TAG to LAG without realizing it. It was kinda slammed in my face by the responders to my post. And they were certainly dead on in their advice!! It just took me 2 days too long to figure out my unintentional change in playing style.

Back on point;

People such as Topthecat clearly is one whom has put in his own time to educating others. I asked one of the very respected members here for help with improving my decision making process. It was suggested I contact Top to see if he would be willing to help. Hell of endorsment!! Will be contacting you soon!! Hope you are stilling willing to help!! In spite of......

When people of this calibre, playing, teaching, helping others with forum posts, now believe they are wasting their time and effort that in itself should send up huge red flags!!!!

The people here is what the league is, nothing more. Nothing else.

To Topthecat;

Hopefully you may come to see that your time is NOT being wasted. There are a members who will read your posts ect. carefully, believing it is going to make them better on the felt.

To PSO;

It should be easy to see that something in the plan is really wrong here when respected members are signing off. Respect to all that ARE contributing members will ensure long term viability, for both the PSO and Stars overall.

Just my opinion,

Nuff said;

Dale

Last edited by dale442; Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:39 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 01:53 PM
(#19)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
............ I'll try and just respond as we go...and thanx top for all you're input in the community...this is just me speaking so please don't think I'm trying to convey this as having any authority..just a player's opinions..
............ the new league system has been implemented without a great deal of thought, discussion or consultation. How can you state this as a fact? How would we possibly know what thought or decision making has gone into creating the new league?
Secondly, the core issues surrounding, cheating, collusion and bad etiquette have been conveniently swept under the carpet in the “euphoria” of the new setup.
.....I still say this is a pokerstars issue...if you're spinning you're tires in the snow, you don't keep doing the same thing. You look for a solution...contact support, flood them with emails. They are the ones with investigators and the ability to hand out discipline. Keep bringing questions about possible violations to the forum...but everything else should be handed to those who can deal with it.

How is it undeserving to express that opinion? I personally have no difficulties with a tiered league. My one reservation is that the payout structure for the premier league for those earning more than 20VPP but less than 150VPP, with a prizepool of 3000$ and a top prize of 500$, makes it more profitable to go back down to the Open League. That is something that you have already opined yourself, so maybe you are “undeserving” as well
I believe I suggested this in the original announcement thread of the new Global League right away. It's not an undeserving attitude, it's simply the math of calculating which pay field is better for you..open or premier, if you have 20 to 150 vpps. I think it's a good idea because if players want to..they can just make sure they don't qualify for the premier league anyway.

And now to Dan, hi there.
HI!!

Sometimes it is a good idea to look a horse in the mouth. Did you know the signs of neglecting a horse’s mouth include avoidance of the bit, head tossing, poor performance, behavioural problems and poor conditioning? It is not only to check the age of the animal.
Hook a wagon to it and let it pull as long as it can.

I like the horse analogy Dan because we can decide if we are dealing with a carthorse or a thoroughbred.
See above, it is a gift-horse after all. Unless you are reeling in some serious money at the end of the month, I still see pso mainly as a way for players to get there bankroll started and growing from there.

.....I believe I am a positive contributor to the forum and go out of my way to offer the same advice to others that was given to me. ...
No doubt.
However, do you really think it would be sensible of me to jettison all I have learnt, discard all my bankroll management rules, play outside the game level I am capable of, in order to qualify for the 150 VPP prizes? Off course it wouldn’t!!!
Absolutely not...I've stated the same thing..above all other things, when playing poker, we must play within bankroll management guidelines...can't overstate this!!
So, here's the thing...players must become better players!!! You just have to develop the skills to sit down at these games and become winning players over and above the rake!! There's no reason to play over your bankroll. When you hit the .05/.10 in ring games for example....you will be hitting your 150 vpps/ month with no problem at all...probably even sooner than that level. Tourneys would be comparable.


That is the sort of game I was playing before I joined PSO and I am not going back to that.

I earn my 20 or 30 VPPs with no cost to myself, indeed it funds the odd tourney or SNG as well but I know I am not ready to multitable and I have no intention of spending 30 or 40 hours a month to gain the required VPPs. I will move up when it is viable for me to do so. That is just common sense.
Again..I don't like the "cost" term..we should be earning vpps while winning money.. and staying within br mgmt guidelines.

I read here at the end of every month about people’s bankrolls being low or bust, and to me that is just not winning poker. Encouraging people who do not even have the basics down pat to aim for higher VPPs is irresponsible in my opinion; it is definitely not promoting responsible gaming and will not make them better players over all. Futhermore, it is short term, short sighted and counter productive in terms of generating long term rake. Lots of players who are steadily improving will find the “cost” of exiting a freeroll Open League to the Premier League too high, especially if the prize structure is weighted to the 150VPP players. If players are actually taught to become better at poker and bankroll management and move up the levels in line with their abilities they will generate much more rake for Pokerstars in the longer term. ..... As bog says, the school is simply not fulfilling its vast potential; it is a carthorse, not a racehorse.
I think we're on the same page on most of this as I've stated.
A carhorse for most, a racehorse for some.


Let’s finish off with some numbers Dan, as I believe your estimations of 1000s benefiting from the program may be a bit off.

Five and half thousand people played in the PSO League last month, we can agree on that one.
First we have to start with all the players who have played..not just last month. How many of that number contribute or are active in the PSO forum?
I would say the majority read the forum, but don't contribute...just look at who's online at any given time..always about twice as many guests as members.How many do not realise that PSO even exists? Somewhere along the line, the message about PSO is not being promoted or delivered properly. There is I would estimate a core community here of about a 100 people.
I would say the number is in the 1000's when talking about regular contributors since we've started just last year. Not taking into account the program which pso has set up and run over the years. I think there are many who start here, and then go on to making better money for the time they invest, in other games. They used the carthorse, they may have had the racehorse once or twice, and then they moved on. I read about these types of players who are still contributing in the forum to this day.

How many out of the five and half thousand playing do you think are making a living from poker?
No idea, but I don't know if this is a fair question to a program for beginners primarily.
How much rake are they generating and probably more importantly how much could they be generating if the program got it right? ...
It is a business, but I don't think you're concerned with the second part of the question.
......
I would like to give a big thank you to PSO and all the people who have helped me here. To those I clashed horns with, thank you as well; it is all part of the rich tapestry that is life.

Good luck to one and all, and remember, if you are doing anything, do it for value….

TC

--------------
Thanks to you too Top and all the rest who do indeed contribute. I hope this program does continue to benefit people in their game.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 02:44 PM
(#20)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Well Dan,

Thanks for the answers; in some parts we are in agreement and in others we are diametrically opposed. I have no problem with that.

I will take you up on one point:

Quote:
How much rake are they generating and probably more importantly how much could they be generating if the program got it right? ...

It is a business, but I don't think you're concerned with the second part of the question.

You are completely wrong on that one because for me it is the very crux of the matter if you care to read what I had written after it

And that is the reason that I constantly harp on about this stuff because I feel that I owe PSO something. I am not playing devil’s advocate, I am putting forward suggestions that I believe will benefit PSO and its membership. A win, win for everyone.


And the only other areas of disagreement:

1. Implementation of the league: I can categorically state that there was zero discussion or consultation with members or else my powers of observation are fading with age. As for thought, I will leave that up to individuals to judge for themselves.

2. Cheating, rules, etiquette. Where do you think that should be taught Dan? By Pokerstars support? I would have thought teaching it in a school would be the place for it to have the most impact.

It is like me inviting you to go fencing but I bring a shotgun. Playing poker without knowing the set of game rules means that everyone is not playing the same game and that is just farcical as the new League has ably demonstrated.

Off course there are players who can adapt and win, and I count myself amongst that number, but as you say this is a school/program primarily for beginners and from what I read PSO seems to making a good job of alienating a fair number of them.

Thanks for the input Dan, even if what you say is not the official PSO line

TC
 

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