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4NL, 66 against aggro fish

 
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4NL, 66 against aggro fish - Wed Jun 29, 2011, 07:02 PM
(#1)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Okay, so this was a fun session. This really aggressive player (jon) has been playing 100% of hands, and I've finally verified that he was super loose and aggressive. The first few hands at the table I got bet off AA and KK in 3-way pots on flops that may or may not have smashed his holdings. Anyhow, now I know he's playing 100% and almost never folds so I can play any hand against him for value.

The first three players fold and I raise to $.10 with . It folds around to jon, who calls.

Flop is . Jon donks $.04 into me. Against most players it's best to always raise donk-bets. I raise it to $.19 and he calls.

Turn is . Jon bets $.20 and I call. One thing I know, based on the flop and turn action, he never has a 10 or better. I figure he has a lot of draws, a lot of air, and maybe 8x or 2 x. (he would probably ship a pocket pair preflop haha)

River is . Every single draw missed. He makes a potsize bet, betting $.87. I know he'd do this with an 8, but also with any pair, busted draw, or maybe even pure air. I'm ahead of a lot of that so I call.

Last edited by oriholic; Wed Jun 29, 2011 at 07:55 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 10:12 PM
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pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
I wouldnt fold with 66 I would go all in after he bet the pot
 
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Wed Jun 29, 2011, 10:38 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Okay, so this was a fun session. This really aggressive player (jon) has been playing 100% of hands, and I've finally verified that he was super loose and aggressive. The first few hands at the table I got bet off AA and KK in 3-way pots on flops that may or may not have smashed his holdings. Anyhow, now I know he's playing 100% and almost never folds so I can play any hand against him for value.

The first three players fold and I raise to $.10 with . It folds around to jon, who calls.

Flop is . Jon donks $.04 into me. Against most players it's best to always raise donk-bets. I raise it to $.19 and he calls.

Turn is . Jon bets $.20 and I call. One thing I know, based on the flop and turn action, he never has a 10 or better. I figure he has a lot of draws, a lot of air, and maybe 8x or 2 x. (he would probably ship a pocket pair preflop haha)

River is . Every single draw missed. He makes a potsize bet, betting $.87. I know he'd do this with an 8, but also with any pair, busted draw, or maybe even pure air. I'm ahead of a lot of that so I call.
Ori,

For me, whenever I play against someone with an "extreme" style, I adjust by doing something almost as extreme. The difference is, I am trying to adopt an extremely exploitative strategy to get the other player's money. For a player like this, that would mean:

1) Holding a hand like 66, I certainly want to raise a bit with the hope of iso'ing on the fish.

The thing about going with an extremely exploitative strategy is that it entails a LARGE amount of potential "counter-exploitation" possibilities. While aggro-fish probably does not have his head in the game enough to adjust to exploit ME, someone else may well have; so I want aggro-fish ALONE.

66 is a good hand to iso, but not a "great" one (necessarily) to bang heads HARD with aggro-fissh. It likely to be well above a 100% aggro-fishes' range, but also un-likely to feel great on most flops. That leads to the 2nd point I'd like to make aobut playing this dynamic...

2) I want to be CAREFUL that aggro-fish does not stack ME.

The idea of playing an exploitative strategy is that you are leaving yourself open to potential counter-exploitation (as stated above), but you are also paving the way for much GREATER wins. It is a 2-sided coin.

Versus a normal opponent, in a normal dynamic, I am not going to stack off a big stack very often with top/top "early" in the hand (on the flop, or turn even). Versus aggro-fish playing 100% and calling almost as much, HELL YEAH I'm moing my stack in with top/top as early as possible! I think it is pretty easy to see how this is counter-exploitatable, but could also lead to much BIGGER wins...

The problem with that strategy for HIS situation is, pp 6's is not top/top. It isn't even top pair nor an over pair to a small board. Because aggro-fish WILL tend to call a LOT, you really want to be very very careful with hands such as these. Afterall, he WILL pay you off when you hold better, so why try getting his chips in less than a "great" spot?

This all leads e to what I'd say would be good to do in this hand...

A) Pre-flop, you raised.
Perfectly done! You got aggro-fish HU, exactly like you wanted.

B) Flop comes semi-dry, but holds 2 overs to your 66. Yuck!
He donks into you for a tiny portion of the pot. Versus a more normal "bad" player, I have no issue whatsoever with your raise to define. Versus this player though, there will be better chances a-plenty to get his chips.

If you feel you are still ahead, then a flat is probably better. This let's you get away much cheaper if a scary card comes, and allows you to better leverage your superior post-flop game.

I could even find good reason to FOLD here. Again, aggro-fish will jsut give you too many better spots to make tangling this light really necessary.

C) Top card (T) pairs on the turn, and aggro-fish now leads heavier for 20c.

Again, had you called the flop then a CALL here is possibly ok, since that T either helped him HUGE, or helped him not at all. Either way, this means your situation hasn't really changed much with that card, so if a flop call was "ok", then a turn call isn't bad either.

Since you DID raise the flop though, and since the pot is now large enough for him to make an "expensive" bet against you, you gotta figure the 2nd bet by him means he has no intention of folding (nor even slowing down), so this is probably a fold now.

D) River blanks, and is not scary for your 66 at all.

Same goes for the 2 prior streets: either he had you all along, and you were calling (or raising the flop) from behind versus a player who does not have an internal "fold button" (gor! I hate when I do that!), or you were ahead all along.

As stated, I would have prefered you had gone into "call mode" all through this hand. Since you DID raise his flop bet, you probably should have dumped rather than call the 20c bet. Since you DIDN'T fold to the 20c bet, you probably have to make the call of the final 87c bet. You either won a nice pot, or lost a TON more than you had to.

Which was it?
 
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Thu Jun 30, 2011, 12:03 AM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Thanks for your comment 671. I actually think shoving 66 is the worst thing I can do. If I shove is it for value or as a bluff?

If he has air he will fold and if he has better, even an 8, he's probably calling. I doubt I can get a call from a pair of 5s.

The way to combat bluffs on the river is not to raise when you think you have the better hand. If he has air he'll just fold, and if he has the big hand he's representing he'll call. I know his range isn't all polarized like that, but I don't gain anything from getting him to fold his bluffs.

I could probably shove any overpair for value here though.
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 03:47 PM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Thanks for your response JDean. Truth is I'm opening any pair from any position 100% of the time at these tables(and actually playing a whole lot looser than that). They are absolutely chock-full of nitty reg setminers and fit-or-fold fish (and regs). I'm not worried about being exploited because these players don't seem able or at least willing to adjust to anything. I generally play around a 40/30 game I think. I open almost 100% of the time in late position. It's just too profitable to play any two against these nits...especially in position.

Anyhow, back to your response. I'm not really raising to define as much as I am raising to make my standard C-bet. His min bet is equivalent to a check, and my raise is just a standard C-bet. I bet here because I probably have the best hand, but there are a lot of cards I don't want to see on the turn or river, so best to get my value in now or even just take it down.

Since I was ahead of most of his range on the flop I still must be on the turn, so that's an auto-call. I'm rarely folding a pair or even ace high against his range. He just has too much air.

Aggro fish did end up doubling through me once. He vowed that he was going to get me after I kept outplaying him. It was a board and I had . I gladly got it in against his and he turned a J. He of course left the table right after that. He did come back later on and I got it all back and then some.

Okay, back to the hand...I went into the tank for this one, my main worry being he was bluffing me with an 8 in his hand. I figured the only hands in his range that beat me were 8x, everything else didn't fit his play for the hand. While he may not know what he's doing I know his range is pretty merged here. He's betting with everything, and that is what makes this a semi-tough decision. He has some very thin value hands and thin bluffs in his range.

I called and Jon turned over for air and I won a nice pot

Last edited by oriholic; Sat Jul 02, 2011 at 01:40 AM.. Reason: Whoops, 25 doesn't beat me.
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 04:00 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Very nice!

Oh, I definately "get" why you'd play a ton of hands at these tables. As long as you have a skill advantage, you WANT to do so (was trying to get that across).

The only thing I DIFFER from your play is: giving the fish a CHANCE to double thru, then leave.

As I'm sure oyu know, that can be disaster, and really is especially common at these micro tables. It seems fish know they are fish whenever they find themselves against someone who is consistently out-playing them. And you are right, NITS get especially peeved at loose palyers who are making profit. The thing is, BOTH types tend to become "focused" on the LAG who is winning, and this can result in the "schooling" effect of all the personality types coming after you, and when they DO make a score off you, taking the money and running.

That was the basis for my "take" on the hand.

I do not want it to be thought that I meant to imply you did anything WRONG in the hand. With 66, on the flop you saw, there is going to be a strong chance you do have the best hand. And if you "feel" that chance, then doing as you did in the hand is completely "correct". Now had you put that much in, then FAILED to call the river bet, I'd say THAT was a mistake...but you didn;t do that, did you?

My input here was merely expressed as a way to approach wildly divergeant from optimal) play, and the methods for minimizing the chance of "ruin" when you've adopted a strategy designed to exploit those styles. It is NOT the only way.

BTW...


The KEY way we seem to differ in hoow to play this hand lies in your flop decision.
Fish min bets into you, you raise.

You state: "I am making my standard C bet really, because his min bet is equal to a check. I am still ahead of much of his range." (not direct quotes).

My thoughts about those statements are (note: again, these are not the ONLY ways to think about thigns):

A) If you are ahead, or behind, do you really think aggro-fish is FOLDING?
If you do think he will fold total air (like the 93 he called on), at least SOME of the time, then I like the bet you made a lot more. I just don't see him folding after donk betting at all though. Consider...

The reality is he has such a wide range, he can hit a rag T or 8, as easily as on air, so you just do not know you are ahead here. If you are behind, you have almsot no hopes of catching up.

If the flop were the RIVER, and he bet this amount, would you RAISE him holding 66, or would you flat with your "bluff catcher"?

B) Your bet, when made without pretty solid knowledge that you ARE ahead, serves only to bloat the pot.

I say this because you do NOT know your 66 is ahead here, and his range is so wide you may be behind. If he isn't folding then you aren't betting to bluff. If you are not pretty sure you are ahead, you aren't really betting for value. You are just bloating the pot.

With a guy as aggro-fishy as this guy, there is a real chance bloating the pot will simply "encourage" him to make a huge bluff at you somewhere in the hand. You hand doesn't really carry the strength necessary to call that big bluff, so you are treading into some dangerous ground by making your flop raise.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jul 01, 2011 at 04:18 PM..
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 12:11 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Okay, so this was a fun session. This really aggressive player (jon) has been playing 100% of hands, and I've finally verified that he was super loose and aggressive. The first few hands at the table I got bet off AA and KK in 3-way pots on flops that may or may not have smashed his holdings. Anyhow, now I know he's playing 100% and almost never folds so I can play any hand against him for value.

The first three players fold and I raise to $.10 with . It folds around to jon, who calls.

Flop is . Jon donks $.04 into me. Against most players it's best to always raise donk-bets. I raise it to $.19 and he calls.

Turn is . Jon bets $.20 and I call. One thing I know, based on the flop and turn action, he never has a 10 or better. I figure he has a lot of draws, a lot of air, and maybe 8x or 2 x. (he would probably ship a pocket pair preflop haha)

River is . Every single draw missed. He makes a potsize bet, betting $.87. I know he'd do this with an 8, but also with any pair, busted draw, or maybe even pure air. I'm ahead of a lot of that so I call.

I don't like the flop raise. You're building a bigger pot with a hand strength that doesn't warrant it, and potentially taking a laggy bluffer out of the lead. In terms of a value spot this is really thin, even against this guy, but there's likely a lot more value in just letting him continue to bluff off chips and call him down.

Given the read I agree the river is a super easy call.
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 12:13 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
I actually think shoving 66 is the worst thing I can do. If I shove is it for value or as a bluff?

If he has air he will fold and if he has better, even an 8, he's probably calling. I doubt I can get a call from a pair of 5s.

The way to combat bluffs on the river is not to raise when you think you have the better hand. If he has air he'll just fold, and if he has the big hand he's representing he'll call. I know his range isn't all polarized like that, but I don't gain anything from getting him to fold his bluffs.
+1.
 

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