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Unethical or Collusion ?

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Unethical or Collusion ? - Fri Jul 01, 2011, 05:08 PM
(#1)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Has anybody watched a replay of last Sunday Storms final table? If not watch it and judge whether you think players publicly typing in chat to promote ganging up on one player is unethical or overt collusion.

Either way to see that behaviour at a showpiece PS final table without comment or warning from the Host is to be frank sickening.
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 05:20 PM
(#2)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Being a poor Yank locked into .net Hell I can't watch it but if they were actually talking in chat about ganging up on one (or more) players,or ANY other discussion of "co-operative" play, between two or more players,it is against the rules. Period.
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 05:23 PM
(#3)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
sure you can Mox, its under tourneys, special.. I just read your post and looked to see if we were banned
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 05:24 PM
(#4)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
It was quite overt Moxie, no room for mis-interpretation from not one but a number of players, I've emailed my concerns to PS Support.


"I have just been observing a replay of the 26th June Sunday Storm final table, to say I am shocked by the overt bad etiquette if not collusion displayed by the majority of the table in ganging up to force a player out is an understatment.

In a showpiece final like this which is supervised by a Host how is it that no words of caution let alone warnings regarding the conduct of players are issued?

I was planning to enter this Sundays tournament but in light of what I have obsereved now have severe reservations.

I have reported this kind of behaviour at numerous tables at which I have played and the frequency and degree appears to be increasing. I fear that unless increased measures are implemented by PokerStars to not only punish players retrospectively but to take action at the table at the time of these incidents they will continue to rise and honest fairminded players will be deterred from playing your tables."
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 06:57 PM
(#5)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Just got my reply, fortunately whilst I was reading it i received a request to complete a survey on my experiences with PS Support, which in light of the complete failure to respond directly to my email and the fact that it has been over 24 hours without response to a previous query lead me to complete the survey in a non-generic or pre-written manner.


Hello David,

Thank you for contacting PokerStars.

We are very sorry that you encountered an unfortunate situation at one of our tournaments. The integrity of our games is of utmost importance to PokerStars, and we employ a large team of Poker Specialists who investigate all collusion reports received from our players.

Please be aware that if you suspect any player's of collusion or rule violation, please simply report their User ID's as well as the game where this happened so that we may review what happened and take any necessary action.

We look forward to your reply.

Regards,

Allen O.
PokerStars Support Team
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 07:24 PM
(#6)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
SO WILL YOU REPLY ??

 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 07:40 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
Now that is interesting I sent a email to pokerschool and got a reply from the same guy.
I posted it in Darkmans thread,so I guess it all goes to the same bin.
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 08:40 PM
(#8)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
My thread?
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 08:46 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
Yeah the response I got from Pokerschool..lol
 
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Fri Jul 01, 2011, 08:48 PM
(#10)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted user View Post
Now that is interesting I sent a email to pokerschool and got a reply from the same guy.
I posted it in Darkmans thread,so I guess it all goes to the same bin.
OR COULD HAVE BEEN FORWARDED ???

 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 05:26 AM
(#11)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
SO WILL YOU REPLY ??

Is the Pope Catholic?


"Thank you for your generic response which fails to respond directly in any way to the issue I raised.

I would suggest that one of your Poker Specialists takes the time to observe the replay I referred to which can be found under the Tourney tab, Special, Replay - Sunday Storm Table - June 26.

I have just received and completed a customer survey relating to my experiences with Support, In light or recent responses and in some cases lack of them my completion of the form was neither generic or pre-written manner."
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 05:33 AM
(#12)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
I am now in the process of writing a full transcript of the chat at this table as it appears their crack team of investigative Poker Specialists must be otherwise engaged, probably doing a wheres Wally/Waldo.



"Hello David,

Thank you for contacting us back.

If you feel like the customer service you have received so far isn't satisfactory then I sincerely apologize.

Furthermore David, if you feel there has been collusion take place at the final table of the Sunday Storm event from July 26, please advise us of the User ID's and we will investigate the matter and take the necessary action according to our investigation.

I have listed the names of the players at the final table for your reference:-

1. Steve Oss
2. KuzMich_pro
3. sarao
4. poutine85
5. juanstars123
6. Omrell
7. Cholo Terco
8. Addon777
9. enamoured86

We thank you for your patience and look forward to your response.

Regards,

Kiel
PokerStars Support Supervisor"
 
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The Big Game - Sat Jul 02, 2011, 06:48 AM
(#13)
De Hitman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 299
I watched the" Big Game " on here and in a couple of the hands Tony G announces his hand during play. As iv'e never played a live game, can you use this tactic in live play?
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 07:02 AM
(#14)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Ask and they shall receive, I wonder if it would be worth setting up a support service for PS Support?


"To assist you further I have spent the last 90 minutes observing the table again and hand typing a transcript of the chat as it cannot be cut and pasted from the table chat.

I have highlighted the parts of chat which I feel are violations of PokerStars rules by player Poutine85 together with comments from other players which support the fact that the intentions of Poutine85 were understood by those playing at the table.

In a showpiece tournament final which has a Host who is obliged to observe the table I am concerned that at no time were players warned regarding the extensive non-English chat that prevailed and more so that no warning was issued regarding the incitement by Poutine85 to other players to collude to eliminate a player.

Tournament # 426110003 362
Players sit out to look at numbers. Host WolfganR provides players with numbers for potential chip chop. Much discussion takes place and the Host issues new numbers in accordance with what players have been discussing.

Host requests those accepting to type “I Agree”, all do so with the exception of Addon777. The game is restarted.

Poutine85: NOW HIM PLAY
Poutine85: AFFF
Juanstars123: addon esta dormido
Poutine85: ALL OUT ADDON <<<
Omrell: the target is addon hahahaha <<<
Poutine85: JUST RAISE IF ADDON IN HAND <<<
Sarao: dont play?
Poutine85: OK IM OUT HIM
Poutine85: AFF
Juanstars123: lol
Poutine 85: AGAIN CHOLO OUT HIM OK <<<
Cholo Terco: ok <<<
Omrell: u cant do that <<<
Omrell: its collusion <<<
Juanstars123: silence lets go
Poutine85: HIM JUST WAIT FOR ONE OUT
POUTINE85: ADDON HAVE 4000 AND OUT NOT 2000
Sarao: no robo juan
Poutine85: UKRAINE NO BIG MONEY
Juanstars123: so ne se hace
Juanstars123: not
KuzMich_pro: lol
Juanstars123: ?
Omrell: addon can u read me?
Poutine85: why I no have good hand for out kik him
Juanstars123 : call odss
Poutine85: go kuz go
Poutinine85: lol
Poutine85: ba ba b a
KusMich_pro: lol
Juanstars123: pf
Juanstars123: es incredible
Poutine85: if kik all player im suicide
Poutine85: lol
Omrell: me too
Poutine85: unreal just need on out to deal afff
Juanstars123: ADDON DEAL PLEASE
Sarao: nh
Juanstars123: CALL ADON
Poutine85: all play for addon <<<
Poutine85: please <<<
Juanstars123: ten cudado
Sarao: yes
Juanstars123: jueago legal
Omrell: yo tenia a9o
Juanstars123: hiciste bien yo no me quieri pegar con nadie
Juanstars123: yo quieri trato
Omrell: yp tp ! yp slol keirp tratoo
Sarao: y yo
Juanstars123: es un torneo muy duro illegar aqui I irte el 7
Juanstars123: es muy duro
Juanstars123: pero addon esta domido
Sarao: cuidadin
Juanstars123: goooooooo
Poutin85e: yes


Addon777 finished the tournament in 8th place."
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 07:26 AM
(#15)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Hitman View Post
I watched the" Big Game " on here and in a couple of the hands Tony G announces his hand during play. As iv'e never played a live game, can you use this tactic in live play?
Interesting you mention that because I had a lengthy discussion with another member on that video.

I firmly understand that the rules of poker prevent any player whether active or not in a hand discussing directly the content of the cards they were dealt, though I believe when HU in tourney and HU in cash play it is often accepted.

TDA Poker rule extract

41. No Disclosure
Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Therefore, players, whether in the hand or not, may not:
1. Disclose contents of live or folded hands,
2. Advise or criticize play at any time,
3. Read a hand that hasn't been tabled.
The one-player-to-a-hand rule will be enforced.


It is a breach of PokerStars rules to do so as follows.

ChatNote: This rule is intended to supplement, not replace, the Cardroom Rules, which contains more information on acceptable and unacceptable chat.

19. Players, whether in the hand or not, may not discuss the hands until the action is complete. Players are obligated to protect the other players in the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand possibilities is not allowed. A penalty may be given for discussion of hands during play.

Note: The purpose of this rule is to protect the interests of players who are still in the tournament but not in the current hand. Please see our Prohibited Tournament Chat examples for further information. More specifically, this rule does not apply to situations where only two players remain in a tournament, or the tournament began as a Heads-Up match.


Disclosing the true contents of your hand or attempting to deceive by stating you have cards that you in fact don't have can unfairly effect the play and betting of others at the table and is therefore not permitted.

It is concerning that this type of play is not only being permitted in live games by PokerStars but that it is being posted up for all to view and as such seen as being condoned and acceptable.

I would certainly like to see Tony G announce to a back street table in Marseille that he has pockets and count the seconds before he hit the floor let alone a reputable casino where he would in most instances find himself stood on the pavement outside.
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 08:16 AM
(#16)
ronh1967's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 376
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogweed1964 View Post
Has anybody watched a replay of last Sunday Storms final table? If not watch it and judge whether you think players publicly typing in chat to promote ganging up on one player is unethical or overt collusion.

Either way to see that behaviour at a showpiece PS final table without comment or warning from the Host is to be frank sickening.
i also sent them an email about this and recieved the same reply as you did an hour later
 
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collusion - Sat Jul 02, 2011, 08:18 AM
(#17)
JAG1281's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 1
it's to easy all you need is a cpl of playing on voice chat and they can tell each other their hands in seconds. One game I was involved in had 2 russians playing and everytime i 3 bet one of them would 5 bet me, in the end i said on the table to them ok whats going on , each time blah blah blah ....2 hands latter they both left.
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 08:52 AM
(#18)
Da Sens Fan's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogweed1964 View Post
Is the Pope Catholic?

Does a bear crap in the woods?



Sorry, had to do it!

Good job taking the time to report that bs bog, hope pokerstars handles it properly.
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 09:18 AM
(#19)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
Lol - nice one DSF

Well I have a reply.

"Hello David,

Thank you for contacting PokerStars again with furhter information.

We have forwarded your email to a Poker Specialist for their review and action. You will receive a response as soon as possible.

Your patience is appreciated.

Regards,

Helena S
PokerStars Support Team"
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 09:20 AM
(#20)
bogweed1964's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 774
I also have sent additional supporting evidence based on a translation received from a member - cheers Rick

"Thank you for that, I also attach the following translations of the Spanish being spoke at the table that implicate the 2 players involved in collusion.


Note: the times they warn each other is because they had legit hands and felt "obliged" to play them i.e a legit raise. The warnings are intended to advise that the raise should not be called.

Juanstars123: addon esta dormido (addon is asleep)
Saro: no robo juan (I'm not stealing Juan)
Juanstars123: so (eso) ne (no) se hace (you don't do that)note; in this context he's telling him it's something that shouldn't/musn't be done.
Juanstar123: es incredible (it's incredible)
Juanstar123: jueago (juego) legal (I'm playing straight up)
Omemel: yo tenia a9o ( I had a9o)
Juanstar123: hiciste bien yo no quieri peger con nadie nadie ( you did the right thing, I don't want to get into it (mix it up) with anyone)
Juanstas123: yo quieri trato (I want a deal)
Omrell: yp tp! yp slol keirp tratoo (me niether! I only want a deal)
Sarao: y yo (me too)
Juanstar123: es un torneo muy duro illegarte aqui i irte 7 (it's a hard tounrny, tough get here and go out 7th)
Juanstar123: muy duro (very hard) note: I believe he's saying going out 7th is a hard thing "emotionally"
Juanstar123 pero addon esta dormido (but addon is asleep)
Sarao: cuidadin (be careful)"
 

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