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Poor Pre Flop Call?

 
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Poor Pre Flop Call? - Sat Jul 02, 2011, 06:54 PM
(#1)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
Hi there,

What would have been the right pre-flop call in this case for me to make?



PokerStars Game #64062515312: Tournament #409510405, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2011/07/03 0:10:32 CET [2011/07/02 18:10:32 ET]
Table '409510405 106' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: tiggastripe (14200 in chips)
Seat 2: fran@frodo (9177 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: Papageno60 (7130 in chips)
Seat 4: Falcon7474 (2535 in chips)
Seat 5: BobbyBad68 (3885 in chips)
Seat 6: @skor@pio297 (6160 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: thewiner97 (3235 in chips)
Seat 8: DEKANAPU (13515 in chips)
Seat 9: philidor-mav (3235 in chips)
tiggastripe: posts the ante 25
fran@frodo: posts the ante 25
Papageno60: posts the ante 25
Falcon7474: posts the ante 25
BobbyBad68: posts the ante 25
@skor@pio297: posts the ante 25
thewiner97: posts the ante 25
DEKANAPU: posts the ante 25
philidor-mav: posts the ante 25
tiggastripe: posts small blind 125
fran@frodo: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BobbyBad68 [Ac Qs]
DEKANAPU said, "everi time zzzzzzzzzzz"
Papageno60: raises 250 to 500
Falcon7474: folds
BobbyBad68: raises 3360 to 3860 and is all-in
@skor@pio297: folds
thewiner97: folds
DEKANAPU: folds
philidor-mav: folds
tiggastripe: folds
fran@frodo: folds
Papageno60: calls 3360
*** FLOP *** [9d 8d 4c]
*** TURN *** [9d 8d 4c] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [9d 8d 4c 7d] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Papageno60: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
BobbyBad68: shows [Ac Qs] (high card Ace)
Papageno60 collected 8320 from pot
BobbyBad68 finished the tournament in 1909th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8320 | Rake 0
Board [9d 8d 4c 7d 3c]
Seat 1: tiggastripe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: fran@frodo (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Papageno60 showed [As Ad] and won (8320) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: Falcon7474 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BobbyBad68 showed [Ac Qs] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 6: @skor@pio297 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: thewiner97 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: DEKANAPU folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: philidor-mav (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 07:02 PM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyBad68 View Post
Hi there,

What would have been the right pre-flop call in this case for me to make?



PokerStars Game #64062515312: Tournament #409510405, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2011/07/03 0:10:32 CET [2011/07/02 18:10:32 ET]
Table '409510405 106' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: tiggastripe (14200 in chips)
Seat 2: fran@frodo (9177 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: Papageno60 (7130 in chips)
Seat 4: Falcon7474 (2535 in chips)
Seat 5: BobbyBad68 (3885 in chips)
Seat 6: @skor@pio297 (6160 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: thewiner97 (3235 in chips)
Seat 8: DEKANAPU (13515 in chips)
Seat 9: philidor-mav (3235 in chips)
tiggastripe: posts the ante 25
fran@frodo: posts the ante 25
Papageno60: posts the ante 25
Falcon7474: posts the ante 25
BobbyBad68: posts the ante 25
@skor@pio297: posts the ante 25
thewiner97: posts the ante 25
DEKANAPU: posts the ante 25
philidor-mav: posts the ante 25
tiggastripe: posts small blind 125
fran@frodo: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BobbyBad68 [Ac Qs]
DEKANAPU said, "everi time zzzzzzzzzzz"
Papageno60: raises 250 to 500
Falcon7474: folds
BobbyBad68: raises 3360 to 3860 and is all-in
@skor@pio297: folds
thewiner97: folds
DEKANAPU: folds
philidor-mav: folds
tiggastripe: folds
fran@frodo: folds
Papageno60: calls 3360
*** FLOP *** [9d 8d 4c]
*** TURN *** [9d 8d 4c] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [9d 8d 4c 7d] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Papageno60: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
BobbyBad68: shows [Ac Qs] (high card Ace)
Papageno60 collected 8320 from pot
BobbyBad68 finished the tournament in 1909th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8320 | Rake 0
Board [9d 8d 4c 7d 3c]
Seat 1: tiggastripe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: fran@frodo (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Papageno60 showed [As Ad] and won (8320) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: Falcon7474 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BobbyBad68 showed [Ac Qs] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 6: @skor@pio297 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: thewiner97 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: DEKANAPU folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: philidor-mav (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

HE HAS A'S WHY WOULD HE NOT CALL ????

 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 07:30 PM
(#3)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
Yeah, I didn't know that... Still having AQo in that position would you have bet?
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 07:46 PM
(#4)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
NO THAT'S A CALL OR FOLD FOR ME


Last edited by hemetdennis; Sat Jul 02, 2011 at 07:48 PM..
 
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Sat Jul 02, 2011, 07:54 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyBad68 View Post
Hi there,

What would have been the right pre-flop call in this case for me to make?



PokerStars Game #64062515312: Tournament #409510405, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2011/07/03 0:10:32 CET [2011/07/02 18:10:32 ET]
Table '409510405 106' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: tiggastripe (14200 in chips)
Seat 2: fran@frodo (9177 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: Papageno60 (7130 in chips)
Seat 4: Falcon7474 (2535 in chips)
Seat 5: BobbyBad68 (3885 in chips)
Seat 6: @skor@pio297 (6160 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 7: thewiner97 (3235 in chips)
Seat 8: DEKANAPU (13515 in chips)
Seat 9: philidor-mav (3235 in chips)
tiggastripe: posts the ante 25
fran@frodo: posts the ante 25
Papageno60: posts the ante 25
Falcon7474: posts the ante 25
BobbyBad68: posts the ante 25
@skor@pio297: posts the ante 25
thewiner97: posts the ante 25
DEKANAPU: posts the ante 25
philidor-mav: posts the ante 25
tiggastripe: posts small blind 125
fran@frodo: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BobbyBad68 [Ac Qs]
DEKANAPU said, "everi time zzzzzzzzzzz"
Papageno60: raises 250 to 500
Falcon7474: folds
BobbyBad68: raises 3360 to 3860 and is all-in
@skor@pio297: folds
thewiner97: folds
DEKANAPU: folds
philidor-mav: folds
tiggastripe: folds
fran@frodo: folds
Papageno60: calls 3360
*** FLOP *** [9d 8d 4c]
*** TURN *** [9d 8d 4c] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [9d 8d 4c 7d] [3c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Papageno60: shows [As Ad] (a pair of Aces)
BobbyBad68: shows [Ac Qs] (high card Ace)
Papageno60 collected 8320 from pot
BobbyBad68 finished the tournament in 1909th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8320 | Rake 0
Board [9d 8d 4c 7d 3c]
Seat 1: tiggastripe (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: fran@frodo (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Papageno60 showed [As Ad] and won (8320) with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: Falcon7474 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: BobbyBad68 showed [Ac Qs] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 6: @skor@pio297 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: thewiner97 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: DEKANAPU folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: philidor-mav (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Depends a LOT on what this opponent has shown down prior to this.

Yous start the hand with 3860 in chips. Blinds are 125/250, with a 25 ante. You hold roughly 15 BB.

Your situation is that you will need a chip up somhow soon, but you do not "need" to jam less than stellar holdings...yet.

This is why your decision is hard to analyze without info onwhat the opponent has shown down before, how often he has entered pots, and general "reads" of his plays.

Versus an extremely TIGHT player, one who "only" raises top tier hands, AQ is quite possibly a fold.

Versus a player who can "mix up" his play, switching from TAG to LAG play with great effcacy, and does so effectively enough that you cannot truly say where you are at, a CALL with the intent of shoving any top pair hit by you, is probably ok. If calling costs you 500, so be it. You are jsut a little closer to your shove/fold decision point.

Versus a LOOSE player, there is nothing wrong with your shove here at all. Your AQ is probably well ahead of a loose player's range, and while you are not "desprete" yet, winning just the 500 + blinds and antes is a solid amount for your stack.

The key thing is though, HOW do you determine which hand is "good enough" against each player to do as you did here (jam over a raise)?

There is something you should really read by David Sklansky, called the "Gap Concept in Poker".

This (in a nut shell) states that you need a bigger hand to CALL, than you need to bet or raise.
The basis for this thought is that by betting or raising, you have 2 ways to win (holding the best hand, or making a potentially better hand fol), but by CALLING, you have just 1 way to win (by holding the best hand). The way you apply that concept to your situation here is this:

Let's say the opponent is player type A, the "uber-nit".
You still hold your AQ.

Uber-nit is so tight he will only raise a group 1 hand. Those hands are: AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AKs

Of those hands, the only ones he considers weak enough to fold to your raise is JJ (100% of the time), QQ/AKs (about 50% of the time). NONE of his range is "behind" your hand at all, so the only real "hope" you have is that he folds a "better" hand.

With less than half his range consisting of hands he would even CONSIDER folding, you will have less than a 50% chance to get him to fold. If he calls, he will be at LEAST a 70/30 favorite over you, so versus a player with this extreme style, you would FOLD your AQ and wait for a better spot.

Now versus type 2...

Type 2 will tend to raise a wide range of hands, including baby pocket pairs, suited connectors, and lessor Aces than your AQ. Of course he will also raise hands which are well AHEAD of your AQo.

Let's assume the read you have says You are ahead of exactly 50% of his range.

Because your hand is pretty strong, you KNOW he is highly un-likely to fold any hand (except baby pocket pairs under 99) to a jam by you if he is ahead. This means you cannot really feel good about jamming a 15BB stack here (not when you might find a better spot to do so later) if he calls.

You also cannot feel comfortable FOLDING AQo here. You simply have too much need for chip ups to let hands this big go, even if you will miss roughly 2/3rds of the flops you see.

Since you have 15BB, and since it will "only" cost you 2BB (500 chips, a bit over 1/8th your stack), AND since you DO have a hand which is going to be ahead of about half this player's range, you prbably can afford a CALL here to paly "fit or fold" poker on the flop. If you were not ahead of a good part of his range, as versus villain type #1, you'd fold, and if you were ahead of MORE of his range, you;d feel more "comfortable" with jamming.

Last guy is simply: he is really loose. You stand to be ahead of a large part of his hand range. You cannot "afford" a standard 3Bet, since any bet between the 1200 and 1500 to go amount you'd probably be making it represents a committing amount for your stack. This hand is an easy jam.

So...

The long and the short of this is: the QUALITY of the decision is based almost entirely upon the QUALITY of the information you use to derive your decision.

Any of those options above would be "right" for you to do, under the proper circumstances. The KEY to moving beyond playing poker at a level where you are "card dependant" for your decisions (card dependance = you can only play when your hand is strong) is starting to recognize what your opponents are doing, and using that info to make your decision.

See?
 
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Sun Jul 03, 2011, 06:24 AM
(#6)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
Hi there,
Thank you very much for the sound advice. I started learning Texas Hold 'em a month ago, and have played in 3 PSO Skill league tournies. My finishes were all from 1500-1900/10000.

In this situation I was aware that my stack was shortening, I was looking for any opportunity to build my stack. In retrospect...

I was not forced to make the play and probably had at leact 2 more orbits of the table before things got critical...i.e.: Stack approaching 5BB.

I was not aware enough of the oppositions style to make a properly informed decision.

In all 3 tournies I have made it to the first break, and soon after that busted out. I hope to improve!

Thanks again,
Chris.
 
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Sun Jul 03, 2011, 06:56 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
you also want to note that PSO play is an example of "extreme" MTT decison making.

The chips you "save" are worth a LOT in terms of your monthly ranking.

those 2 orbits you could have "waited" can easily result in you outlasting 250+ palyers in the pre-black friday dynamic PSO, and form what I am hearing would be even MORE in the "new" PSO dynamic.

Those people you out last will tend to go a good bit of the way you need to make positive points instead of negative points. If you minimize your negative points in PSO, and maximize your positive poitns, you will tend to do much better in the league structure.
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 10:43 PM
(#8)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
another crummy bad beat story, you obviously did the right thing considering how short u were

geezus this section of the forum was supposed to be for interesting hands to anyalys and talk poker, its more like talking freerolls and crapshoot badbeats sighhhhhh

i highly recomend using the bad beat section of the forum for ur next posts cheers
 
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Tue Jul 26, 2011, 04:28 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
another crummy bad beat story, you obviously did the right thing considering how short u were

geezus this section of the forum was supposed to be for interesting hands to anyalys and talk poker, its more like talking freerolls and crapshoot badbeats sighhhhhh

i highly recomend using the bad beat section of the forum for ur next posts cheers
Look spunky, your participation in the forum here is really a good thing, so long as you do not "close your mind" to OTHER possibilities, and as long as you try to avoid approaching EVERY person's question as a way to say, "that is so obvious!".

Mike Caro has a saying: "In the beginning, everything is equal".

By that he means that when you have no prior knowledge upon which to base your decision, all things are equally valid. Example:

Let's say you are a 21 yr old who was raised in the out back of Australia, and have never seen a city street. You are "magically" transported to down town Sydney, and you see a big fat steak across the street; you are hungry. You may have an inkling that it isn't a good idea to let one of those shiny boxes that are flying around run into you, so you are not really sure about how to get to the steak. To just about anyone walking past, it really is pretty "obvious" how you go about crossing the street, but to you it isn't at all. So you ask...

Is it really going to help you much if the answer you get is something like, "Ah mate, the pedestrian has the right of way, so those cars are going to stop. Go ahead and cross!"

The helpful passer-by has left out so much basic info that is needed to cross the street safely that even though his answer is "true", it is much more likely to get you killed if you try following his suggestion...see?

It seems to me that as you've progressed to more and more posts, the tenor of your comments have become more and more derisive. I'm not saying you are "wrong"; a lot of times it is perfectly fine to just "pick a hand and make a stand", and a lot of these hands DO seem to be "omg, I'm short should I do what I did here?" when the Hero seems to be in a spot where he should feel he has a clear advantage. The thing you MIGHT be missing (and I do not want to claim to know your thoughs, so I say "might") is that a lot of these players are looking for info on the THINKING PROCESS, not simply the hand in question...

How 'bout you try to explain WHY you think this is "just a bad beat", and why you think it is a clear stand for the hero? Doing that could certainly cut down on the impression you are building with me, and that you seem to be building with others as well, that you are merely taking "pot shots" at any hand posted here. In short, try to be more constructive with your "help"...

You gotta remember: this is the PSO FORUM, not the 2 + 2 forum.

Players here have a wide variety of skill levels, and do not all have a strong familiarty with WHY you may want to go with a hand like AQ vs a weak raise range. We also have people who are looking for analysis in light of the "realities" of a cumulative score league that differs GREATLY from a "standard" MTT.

Are a lot of these questions repetitive, and seemingly "clear" in their answers; sure.

But there ARE tiny variations which happen in poker that may take on great weight in the final decision. A lot of newer palyers may miss those tiny distinctions, so your type of post really does not help them "see" those things in similar, but slightly different hands.

Last edited by JDean; Tue Jul 26, 2011 at 04:37 PM..
 

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