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A10 in early mid position

 
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A10 in early mid position - Mon Jul 04, 2011, 12:20 PM
(#1)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
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I wonder how you feel about the way I played this hand , I'm disappointed both with my play on the flop and my call on the river . I would like your opinion .

Last edited by JARGON1977; Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 12:24 PM.. Reason: misprint
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 01:40 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
You're disappointed in your play on the flop? You checked behind two players after flopping air. Sure, you could make a positional bluff since the other two don't seem to be interested in the pot, but at 2NL and with a decently coordinated board, you won't get folds often, so I think your check on the flop is fine.

On the turn, you make your top pair with a mediocre kicker. It's possible that the preflop raiser was opening with a weaker ace, possibly (and this is a major stretch at 2NL) actually widening their range of aces to open with in order to isolate the limper. They could also be making some weird bluff (or weird slowplay, as it happens), but I don't think it's necessarily time to give up the hand. That's a good spot to call. I range the villain on an ace almost all of the time here, because nothing else makes much sense.

On the river, your kicker actually rates to be good, because only AK, AQ, and AJ beat you, and I'm not ranging the villain on those very often (and I'm not ranging the villain on any other hand at all, short of a read on their play). AK and AJ would probably have c-bet bluffed the flop, and AQ would have c-bet for value. Every other ace loses. So, the river call is fine. Even if you're not doing better than 50% against your opponent's range, you're getting good odds on the call.

The biggest spot where I would have considered folding would be preflop. After someone opens in EP, your AT needs to hold up versus their range as well as those of potential callers behind. And the more people behind, the more likely it is you are to get a call, and then you're playing out of position for the rest of the hand. Unless I had a read on both villains saying that they're very fishy, I'd have folded the AT.

Calling down was fine, in my opinion. There might actually be a case for raising the river for value, but I won't get into that.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 02:10 PM
(#3)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Yes , thanks a fold pre flop sounds good to me . My concern on the river was wether a raise would have forced a fold but , I'm not concerned about that now .
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 03:48 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
PRE-FLOP:
You are at less than a full ring table (7 handed), and this tends to lower the entry standards needed. You hold ATo. BUT...
There is an UTG limp, and a small raise (to 3BB to go) in front of you.
You are in middle position at the table (2 to act behind you who would ahve position, plus the blinds).

In this spot, I think ATo is a hand you really should be folding or raising, not calling. Why?

- AT tends to be a "trouble hand" insofar as when you flop top pair, you either have a WEAK kicker, or against a raiser your top pair T may be facing an over pair.

- There is very marginal straight potential from this top-end 3 gapper, and since you are not suited there is virtually no flush draw value.

- Calling will tend to induce the cut-off and/or button to come along as well, thus denying yourself the benefit of position with a hand that really does not have enough "strength" to play well oop.

If you feel the open limper AND the raiser are booth loose enough that your ATo has a decent chance of being ahead, you really should raise to charge them a price for their looseness. If you feel that ATo is NOT "strong enough" to raise the Villains' ranges here, then you should recognize it will not flop big enough, often enough, to make it very easy to play. Hence- Raise or Fold, do not call here.

FLOP:
Flop comes Qs 5s 3d
It checks to you
You check behind

This is the spot you need to be aware of what your "plan" for the hand was.
If you had RAISED to enter, and saw this flop there is a decent chance you could win this with a C-Bet.
If you did raise, and C-Bet, and got called, you'd then be able to "slow down" quite a bit and avoid losing a ton as well; see the benefit of raising versus loose opponents?

Since you CALLED though, you've elected to keep the pot "small".
When it checks to you in that case, and when you've flopped bupkis, there is nuttin' wrong with checking behind.

TURN:
The turn throws the Ah on board, and you spike top pair.
The intial limper now bets 15c into the 52c pot, and the initial raiser min raises, making it 30c to you.
You call.

YUCK.
This is why ATo is a "trouble hand"; where you at????
Does the initial raiser have a flush draw?
Does he have a better Ace?
Does he hold a set he wanted to slow play?
There is not a lot he MIGHT have that Top pair/T kicker will be ahead of.

As for the initial limper, what does HE have?
Did that A spike him a 2nd pair, causing him to lead out?
Is he on a weak Ace?
Is he on total air?

While the 15c lead bet MIGHT be one you could call, you really must assess the strength of your holding, as well as the re-draw potential you have (almost nothing), before calling a bet AND a raise here, even though they are small-ish amounts.

If the turn raiser is loose enough, a flat call might be ok, but he;d have to be REALLY, REALLY loose for that to be true.
You'd also want to know that he isn't a "rash" bluffer. This is so because calling bloats the pot to the point a frequent "big" bluffer may jam an amount on the river, ANY river, that is simply too much for you to call.

So again, I'd have much prefered you raise or fold, based upon opponent reads here.

RIVER:
Qh comes on the river.
Villain bets 56c.
You call.

That's a pretty bad card for you, as it means that had you "caught up" on the turn versus a top pair flop, you are once again behind.
The presence of a 2nd Q also increases the chances your opponent does NOT have a Q though, but that means his raising on an Ace turn means he probably holds at least an Ace that has your T kicker in "trouble".

The big problem for you throughout this hand is that having passively called, then having hit your top pair, you've caused the pot to bloat to the point that folding to his 56c river bet is probably a "mistake". Had you raised at some point in this hand, you may have received a strong 4Bet "response" form his set, thus giving you all you needed to know to "get away from" your ATo here. You didn;t raise at any point thought, and you lost a good bit.

There is a REASON why aggressive poker tends to be the most profitable sort...

When you bet or raise, you have 2 ways to win the pot: holding the best hand at the river, or by making a BETTER hand fold.
33 here, pre-flop, is a "better" hand in terms of showdown value than your ATo.
Had you RAISED pre-flop, there is the chance that 33 may have felt too "weak" to call your raise.
Had he folded, you would hve made a "better" hand fold, see?

You CALLED though, giving yourself just 1 way to win: holding the best hand at the river.
You missed your chane to make 33 fold pre-flop (no WAY he's folding once flopping a set), but by calling later streets you also missed the chance he'd 4Bet his strong holding. Lacking the info a 4Bet would have given you, you continued to call when you were basically drawing dead. Tht is NOT a recipe for "winning" poker...

Tight, AGRESSIVE play is...

A mantra for you:

"Raise more than call, FOLD more than raise"!

Follow that, and you will be on the right track for avoiding hands like this one.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 04:10 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I agree with you regarding the preflop and flop possibilities, JDean. Folding/raising makes the most sense to me preflop, and it is interesting to see how the action on the flop would have differed had the Hero 3bet preflop.

Regarding the turn and river actions, I disagree. Given that the preflop raising villain only made the bet 3x over a limper, that they made no aggressive action on the flop, and that they only minraised the turn, I'm not seeing much strength. They're making no real attempt to accrue value, which implies that they're not all that strong. A hand stronger than one pair seems pretty unrealistic for this villain, because they're getting no money out of it, so I'm lead to believe that weak aces are in their range. Moreover, they checked the flop, then sprung to life when the ace hit, even facing a bet. I don't think the villain is bluffing the turn, but they don't look strong either. If you call, you preserve equity. If you raise, you're opening yourself to a 4bet to which you'd have to fold. If either villain has a draw, let them play it. They're way behind. If you're behind, call down anyway. This villain isn't betting big enough to get you to consider folding.

On the river, facing one villain whose range is almost entirely aces in my opinion, who bets small, it's a snap-call. Don't raise because better will 4bet and worse should fold, and don't fold because you're ahead enough of the time. In this hand, I think that calling down maintains the most value.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 04:27 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I agree with you regarding the preflop and flop possibilities, JDean. Folding/raising makes the most sense to me preflop, and it is interesting to see how the action on the flop would have differed had the Hero 3bet preflop.

Regarding the turn and river actions, I disagree. Given that the preflop raising villain only made the bet 3x over a limper, that they made no aggressive action on the flop, and that they only minraised the turn, I'm not seeing much strength. They're making no real attempt to accrue value, which implies that they're not all that strong. A hand stronger than one pair seems pretty unrealistic for this villain, because they're getting no money out of it, so I'm lead to believe that weak aces are in their range. Moreover, they checked the flop, then sprung to life when the ace hit, even facing a bet. I don't think the villain is bluffing the turn, but they don't look strong either. If you call, you preserve equity. If you raise, you're opening yourself to a 4bet to which you'd have to fold. If either villain has a draw, let them play it. They're way behind. If you're behind, call down anyway. This villain isn't betting big enough to get you to consider folding.

On the river, facing one villain whose range is almost entirely aces in my opinion, who bets small, it's a snap-call. Don't raise because better will 4bet and worse should fold, and don't fold because you're ahead enough of the time. In this hand, I think that calling down maintains the most value.
CHECK/RAISE! CHECK/RAISE! CHECK/RAISE!!!!!

In the micro limits, a check raise, or a delayed check THEN raise (as here) is almost money in the bank NOT a "bluff". It is almost as often, money in the bank, strength GREATER than 1 pair.

You gotta remember Panicky, these micro players tend to have CALL as their "default setting".
Sure, you are right, a lot of these guys will over value rag Aces, but when someone leads into their "hits", they are either UBER AGGRESSIVE ("I hit my card, so I bet BIG!"), or they are "kicker aware" and fall back on their default call mode. The fact this guy "massaged" the pot with his turn bet is what struck me that he was on a big hand.

For the record:

When I do these HA posts, I do not watch the whole vid, then make my comments.
I use pause, stopping on each street, to write my thoughts down on a note pad. I then paste it to the forum.
So I did NOT "know" he had a set before I saw the hands exposed in the video.

The OP did not provide info on reads, so I was going by my own perceptions. I do agree that it COULD be a rag Ace that hit which triggered the 30c raise, but I also still hold with my perception that it was a bet AND a raise...that rarely bodes wel for top pair/T kicker.
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 04:38 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
When I do these HA posts, I do not watch the whole vid, then make my comments.
I use pause, stopping on each street, to write my thoughts down on a note pad. I then paste it to the forum.
So I did NOT "know" he had a set before I saw the hands exposed in the video.
I don't use a notepad, but I do the same thing. I don't know what you meant by check-raise x 3, but if you're talking about the flop, it makes no sense. The Hero has no reason to bet. He wasn't the PFR. The PFR flopped a set, then checked it with one player to act behind. That's a horrible way to play it that I would expect most novices would know better than to do. And a delayed c-bet seems bad, too, since you're missing out on massive 3rd street value. On the turn, betting a queen when the ace hits is equally dumb, so queens should not be in their range either. I figured that common sense dictated that the villain would have an ace here 90% of the time. Not necessarily weaker, but very likely an ace. Minraising hardly seems like massaging the pot, though, especially when you're pricing everyone and their dog in to call with their draws. The villain played their hand so incorrectly that I'm flabbergasted.

As a rule, I tend to believe that even players in the micros can play correctly until they prove otherwise. When they do, I take note and exploit. Exploiting this player should be easy. Play poker with them. Mission accomplished.

 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 04:40 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
Yes , thanks a fold pre flop sounds good to me . My concern on the river was wether a raise would have forced a fold but , I'm not concerned about that now .
fuggitaboutit!

No way, if this guy had an ounce of sense, would he put in that much of his $2.31, the FOLD when he boats...especially since you didn't raise at any point in the hand. Consider...

1) DELAYING your jam, or any raise, 'til the river makes it appear most likely you hold JUST a Q...not queens full. He can beat trip Q's.

2) His river bet puts him about half into the pot ($2.31 start, $1.31 leaft after river bet).
While in a cash game "committment" means a totally different thing than in tourney play (you CAN fold half your stack and be right to do so in a cash game quite often), the fact a river jam by you will lay him around 2.8 to 1 odds to call, AND the fact he is boated means he is gunna pretty much have to call.
Odds would be:
$3.68 in the pot after his river bet, and your 'jam" (if you tried to fold him out on riv)
$1.31 is what he had left in his stack that he'd have to call.
$3.68 / $1.31 = 2.809 to 1 odds, see?

If the money were FAR deeper, then there is a shot he might fold his "under boat" to a potential slow playing BIGGER set (or AQ), but novice players rarely will fold ANY boat.
(see this link: http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy/theorems/zeebo/ )

But since it isn't deeper, there is really no chance here for you to river bluff, and take it down.

Last edited by JDean; Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 04:55 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 04:50 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I don't use a notepad, but I do the same thing. I don't know what you meant by check-raise x 3, but if you're talking about the flop, it makes no sense. The Hero has no reason to bet. He wasn't the PFR. The PFR flopped a set, then checked it with one player to act behind. That's a horrible way to play it that I would expect most novices would know better than to do. On the turn, betting a queen when the ace hits is equally dumb, so queens should not be in their range either. I figured that common sense dictated that the villain would have an ace here 90% of the time. Not necessarily weaker, but very likely an ace. Minraising hardly seems like massaging the pot, though, especially when you're pricing everyone and their dog in to call with their draws. The villain played their hand so incorrectly that I'm flabbergasted.

As a rule, I tend to believe that even players in the micros can play correctly until they prove otherwise. When they do, I take note and exploit. Exploiting this player should be easy. Play poker with them. Mission accomplished.

It was a joking reference to a siren alarm going off...the check raise repeated 3 times.

And as for "a horrible way for a novice to play a flopped set, that they'd never do", unfortunately I gotta say you are wrong there: a LOT of novices "over slow play" sets, thinking the best thing they can do whenever they flop one is check. It doesn;t surprise me AT ALL he'd check a set on this flop with only 1 player to act behind. A lot of 'em lack the knowledge or ability to read the table to know if there is a likely bettor to lead behind 'em, to read the board texture for threats, or to know opponent tendencies in regarding to start standards to know who might have "enough" on a given flop to call a lead bet by the set. so yes, novies make BIG mistakes with flopped sets all the time.

As for betting a Q, yeah, I agree...betting a Q when the Ace shows is often a "mistake" even novices can avoid. I tossed in the possibility because it IS a "possibility", albeit a weak one. The dynamic here said flopped set, 2 pair turn, or AK to me really...not QJ/KJ.

By "massaging the pot", a min raise is EXACTLY what I mean. It is a bet that you despretely WANT to be called. Me, I hate min betting or min raising, even with extreme strength (since if they'll call a min raise, they'll often call a 1.5 or 2 times raise as well), but in raising this is EXACTLY what a novice who despretely wants a call is likely to do.

I'm not saying the Villain played his hand very well at all either. The "mistakes" the OP made in this hand were such that you could easily make the case that the villain left about 50c to 75c "on the table" that the OP would have been willing to call, maybe more. Fact is though, we aren;t trying to help the Villan to look at his paly here, we are looking at what the OP can do...

As such, I tried to bang hard on the "sign posts" which point out potential "threat" situations for what normally seems a good hand (top pair). There WERE sign posts there...

Last edited by JDean; Mon Jul 04, 2011 at 04:53 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 04, 2011, 05:06 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The only sign post I see is the raise on the turn, and I see it as more of a 'I just made top pair, and I'm sure as hell not getting only a min-bet out of it' kind of 3bet, not a 'please call me, or better yet, raise' type of 3bet. I suppose either interpretation has merit (even though only one is correct). It's probably best to not put too much stock in the information gleaned from it, because it really doesn't provide anything conclusive.

As for the check on the flop, it's horrible for at least three distinct reasons that come immediately to my mind. Sure, some people play like that, but it's so incredibly awful in this particular scenario, that sets have to at least be partially discounted from their range. And since there are only 18 possible flopped set combos out of 153 possible hands (A2+, QQ, 55, 33), discounting any of them puts the liklihood of a flopped set below 10% if we assume that the villain never has any other hand in their range.

I think the hero played the hand pretty well, after the preflop round.
 

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