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Newbie question on pre-flop pot odds?

 
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Newbie question on pre-flop pot odds? - Wed Jul 06, 2011, 04:13 PM
(#1)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
New to this game, hence the question...

You are playing at a full table in a MTT. It's early game; your Stack:blind ratio is +50.
The table is filledwith players limping into pots...

As a general guide if ther are 5 limpers, for example and 13 bets in the pot. It's going to cost you 2 bets to go in.

Getting those kind of odds, what kinds of starting hands would you call with. What would you raise with?

Thank you!
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 04:15 PM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
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WHATS THE GAME ???

 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 04:20 PM
(#3)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
I play lots of microstakes SNGs aand MTTs...
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 04:22 PM
(#4)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
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OMAHA, LIMIT, NO LIMIT,OR WHAT ???

 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 04:23 PM
(#5)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
In general at the $2 NLHE cash games and tournies with a $1 or $2 buy in.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 04:25 PM
(#6)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
No Limit Hold 'Em.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 06:10 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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category 1 hands only. Let the others knock themselves out, or double you when you get a premium hand.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 07:44 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Overlimpers are dead money, who almost never have a hand. I don't call; I raise. If you're in late position and a bunch of people have limped in front of you and you can make a 5BB + 1BB per limper raise without committing about a third of your stack, then I'd do it with medium pairs, high pairs, and AJ+. If I'm out of position, or the raise would be for too much of my stack, I shove. People who limp are burning money, and very seldom does someone do it with a solid hand. Overlimpers generally never do it with a solid hand. Smash the pot for value with about the top 10% of hands.

I don't like to do this with KQs-type hands, because you'll get a lot of bad players making bad calls with weak aces. If nobody's hiding a monster, weak aces and small/medium pairs are what are going to call you. You'll ususally have them crushed with big aces and medium+ pairs.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 07:47 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 09:54 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyBad68 View Post
New to this game, hence the question...

You are playing at a full table in a MTT. It's early game; your Stack:blind ratio is +50.
The table is filledwith players limping into pots...

As a general guide if ther are 5 limpers, for example and 13 bets in the pot. It's going to cost you 2 bets to go in.

Getting those kind of odds, what kinds of starting hands would you call with. What would you raise with?

Thank you!
this answer depends on a LOT of factors.

the things you need to know up front are:

as a "new" player, facing a raiser and a ton of callers, you will tend to need a hand that makes your post flop decisions "easy". this is because you are not very likely to get all to fold with a raise.

Hands which will ONLY be very strong or very weak (like small and middle pocket pairs) tend to be the "easiest" decisions; you either have a set, or you have a non over pair to the board and it is an easy fold.
Hands that will result in top pair/top kicker, or over pairs like big pp JJ+ or AK (if it hits) tend to be next easiest.
Hands which will quite often result in "strong" 8 or 9 out draws (ooe straight draws or flush draws) are next easiest.
Hands which will likely result in "wierd" combo draws (like 86o that flops 3rd pair and a gut shot straight) are a lot harder.

next thing you need to know is "how" does the given hand you hold "play best".

Hands like small and medium pp in multi-way pots would like to see "cheap flops", but tend to make a strong enough hand that if they do make a set you are not really "worried" about a multi-way confrontation. You'd probably CALL in (cheaply only!) with those, especially when the money is "deep" (this means when the stacks are large, 100 to 200BB+) in relation to the blinds.

Hands that will make top pait/top kicker, or an over pair, tend to prefer a smaller "field". These hands generally hold enough "strength" that you are not overly fussed about creating a "big" pre-flop pot with a raise, but what you do NOT want are a large number of opponents each of whom may flop some "wierd" 2 pair or trip hand, or a strong DRAW, to suck out on you.

Hands like JTs, T9s, 87s, QJo, all those are hands which derive much of their "value" as drawing hands. Like small pocket pairs, they will tend to be hands you'd like to play "cheaply", in hopes of flopping a strong 8 or 9 out draw; if you do not flop such a draw, most often you can release these cheaply. The reaosn why these are harder to play than the "set mining" hands is that they will flop DRAWS, not strong "made" hands. playing draws can be "tricky" since they require you to have a good knowledge of pot odds, implied odds, and opponent reading ability (so you know if their post flop betting tendencies will be likely to give you good odds to draw).

The last group is hardest to play, because it will require a very STRONG ability to read opponents. As a new player, I'd not suggest you try playing off suit 1+ gappers in multiway pots very often...they just require too much knowledge to be profitable.

Next, you need to know the effect of your entry decision on your stack size, and also how the opponents' stacks may effect THEIR decisions.

If you are in a tournament holding 2000 in chips with the blinds at 50/100, calling in for 300 of that without a BIG hand can be pretty costly. That size stack "requires" you to wait for situations where you can be aggressive with your pot entries (big pp, tp/tk type hands), because you will usually not encounter many betting situations which will allow you to play post flop poker very effectively on that size stack.

If you are in a CASH GAME, and you hold $200 in a $1/$2 NL table, with everyone similarly stacked, then your "play book" decisions tend to be a lot more wide open.

If you are in a tournament, and one (or more) of the opponents in the pot are shart stacked in terms of post flop play (15-20BB or less), then you can "expect" one (or more) of them may make a "stand" on a top pair hand. This dries up the playability of your drawing hands a lot.

Etc...etc...etc....

Like a lot of "general" questions in poker, the answer to what you ask here is "it depends".

the subject matter you;ve opened up here is SO BIG, and the factors to consider are so varied, it is very very hard to give a "simple" answer that will be "right" in all situations.

If you "only" enter pots like this with hands you can feel good about raising, you give up a LOT of potential speculative value.

If you ALWAYS enter situations like this with speculative hands, then you are going to "leak" quite a few chips to people with highly aggressive post flop betting tendencies.

The BEST you can do is use the knowledge you hae now to the greatest effect.

To me, that says you should fore-go a LOT of your more speculative plays (until you learn more).

You should enter pots like this ONLY when you can re-raise.

You should ONLY consider re-raising hands from QQ+, or AK in this spot, and you should consider strongly dumping even AK if a raise would put you near to, or over about 33% of your stack into the pot.

The AMOUNT you should raise should be 3 x BB, plus 1 BB per limper/caller. If this amount exceeds 33% of your total stack, you should just open jam (go all in).

You should be willing to put ALL your remaining chips into the pot if you do raise an amount from about 20% to 33% of your stack, and the initial raisers 4Bets you (raises again).

FOLD everything else.

Even these very NARROW suggestions will not be "correct" in all situations. But because they tend to be VERY "ABC", they will tend to be right a lot more often than they are wrong.

Hope it helps...

Last edited by JDean; Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 10:04 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 10:05 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
You should ONLY consider re-raising hands from QQ+, or AK in this spot, and you should consider strongly dumping even AK if a raise would put you near to, or over about 33% of your stack into the pot.

FOLD everything else.
Am I reading this right? Fold if not holding QQ+ and some combos of AK? Uber nitty imo.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 10:08 PM
(#11)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Am I reading this right? Fold if not holding QQ+ and some combos of AK? Uber nitty imo.
+1000 on that one PP uber nitty in my opinion
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 10:09 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Am I reading this right? Fold if not holding QQ+ and some combos of AK? Uber nitty imo.
For THIS particular player, who is new to poker...

Yes.

He is not likely to get this pot pre-flop.

He lacks the knowledge to effectively assess his chances of getting it only heads up, or 3 way.

JJ will see an overcard on the flop over 50% of the time, so playing a non over pair becomes very hard.

So Yes, it IS "uber-nitty"...

But then any multi-way pot situation is fraught with a LOT of potential difficult decisions for the newer player. If you want to maximize your ability to make effective decisions on a minimal knowledge base, then Uber-Nit play is the way to go...

...usually.

think about it a sec...

13BB in the pot.
He calls along, and it goes to 15BB at minimum.
ANY "standard" type C-Bet will be for around half the pot.
CALLING that amount to draw will mean our OP will have 10BB in, or about 20% of his stack.

Can he use pot odds and impled odds well enough yet to judge his ability to make a call?
Doubtful for a newer player.

Can he assess his ability to make a strong semi-bluff and take it down WITHOUT drawing?
Almost certainly not for a newer player.

If he does NOT hold a board over pair, or top/top, can he assess effectively the chance his is "good"?
Doubtful...

Can he use his bettitng to leverage fold equity?
Very doubful.

So...

About the ONLY "wideneing" to this I would think is "reasonable" would be to include ANY pp into your CALL range.

The reason I am not "sold" on that is you will generally not flop a set often enough, nor be able to effectively say how often the intial raiser will C-Bet (nor how much he will C-Bet), to make this play long term +eV for you in MTT play. Additioanlly, playing hands like 88/99/TT, which MIGHT flop a minor over pair to the board, leaves you in a VERY tough spot versus an open raiser who might be palying a stronger pp...this could lead to bigger losses.

So YES...uber-nitty in MTT play for the new player is the way to go.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 10:20 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 10:14 PM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If he's shoving, then no post-flop play is required. That makes shoving even if 3x + 1x per limper commits less than 33% of one's stack a defensible play.

Even if it commits less than 33%, post-flop play here is exceptionally simple: pot flop, get it in on the turn if any money is left. Even if you miss the flop, you can do this profitably with a much wider range of hands (e.g. 10%).

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Wed Jul 06, 2011 at 10:16 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 10:21 PM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
If he's shoving, then no post-flop play is required. That makes shoving even if 3x + 1x per limper commits less than 33% of one's stack a defensible play.

Even if it commits less than 33%, post-flop play here is exceptionally simple: pot flop, get it in on the turn if any money is left. Even if you miss the flop, you can do this profitably with a much wider range of hands (e.g. 10%).
How do you know this?

...when you do not have the knowledge level to effectively range the initial raiser, nor any of the callers?

what if open raiser only raises AA/KK?
What if the 2nd caller only calls to "trap" with big pp?
what if...what if...what if...

To answer those questions you need KNOWLEDGE of the game which a newer palyer probably does not yet have.

See?
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 10:49 PM
(#15)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyBad68 View Post
The table is filledwith players limping into pots...

As a general guide if ther are 5 limpers, for example and 13 bets in the pot. It's going to cost you 2 bets to go in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
How do you know this?

...when you do not have the knowledge level to effectively range the initial limper, nor any of the other limpers?

what if open limper only limps AA/KK?
What if the 2nd limper only limps to "trap" with big pp?
what if...what if...what if...

To answer those questions you need KNOWLEDGE of the game which a newer palyer probably does not yet have.

See?
You seem to have misread the OP.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 11:25 PM
(#16)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
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Panicky, from a beginner, they better play it tighter.... for you, JD, etc (that have played alot), then this is a great place to get in with suited connectors, 1-gaps, etc.... and outplay someone after the flop (especially with a disguised hand). A beginner won't be able to spot the different things that you or others would post-flop.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 11:30 PM
(#17)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I've been making an arguement to shove, not call.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 11:35 PM
(#18)
JWK24's Avatar
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I wouldn't want to shove without a made hand. If you have QQ, KK, AA, then shoving might not be bad... IF... you can isolate someone. I wouldn't want to be shoving a non-made hand that might be called by up to 5 people. Reads on opponents would really help in deciding what to do, because even if I had AA, I don't want to be in a 5-way pot, because you're going to lose way too many of them.
 
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Wed Jul 06, 2011, 11:52 PM
(#19)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
So, you're giving an AA preflop shove some credit, but not complete credit, for being a good play here? This discussion keeps coming up. If it's a +EV play, ship it!!! or you're a mincash nit. I'd shove over 30BB here with something like 66+ and AJ+ without a second thought, because I'd be confident that I'm getting called by worse often enough to make money long-term. It does depend a bit on the table dynamic, but as a rule, if the table is loose/passive, you're going to have to put up with potential multi-way all-in's. If you just wait them out like a passing storm, then you'll be looking around at a bunch of bigger stacks than yours, because that's where all the loose/passive dead limping money went. It won't be in your stack.
 
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Card Dependancy... - Thu Jul 07, 2011, 12:20 AM
(#20)
BobbyBad68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 8
Hi there,

JDean to the recue again!

Your last advice really sank home. I finished around 250 at the next League tornament...
The most salient piece of advice you gave was about being locked into card dependant decisions. At the level I am at, I don't try to be fancy, and play with a tight/aggresuve approach; a limited hand selection, usually resulting in easy decisions on the flop.
Over the last week I have ahieved a goal and played in twenty full ring SNG tournies and 10 40-seat MTTs. They all had a buy in of around $1. (I tell you this so you have an idea of the competition!)

Why I like SNGs and MTT...

1: You get the chance to see how the other players act and react, and by the time level 5 comes around, I think you a fair read of everyone else.

2: I agree with the poster said about raising chronic limpers, but after losing their mini bets 3 or 4 times, they learn a bit...Maybe this is specific to the exciting world of micro-stakes, but I find I get better results by limping in myself and having a very good idea of what my pot odds are at the flop. Yes, there are some crazy beats, and I see some crazy (profitable) bets but if I keep my head fixed on the ratios it seems to work out in the long run.

3: It's only numbers. I have no emotional attached to the stack in front of me, so decisions are un-muddied.

4: I am attatched scoring systems and so the format works.

5: I know Mr. Brunson disagrees, but I like the prize structure. Sure, I made a few mistakes, but I will be better next time and thanks for the place money....The sixty odd dollars I spent (invested) is now seventy-six.

6: At a big table I have more time to calculate outs, odds, etc...

7: And most importantly, it is a format that has allowed me to be less 'card dependant'. Getting a fix on your opponent and using position to every advantage, allows to me act on a few speculative hands. I think that if all your decisions are mathematically sound, you can't go far wrong....
 

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