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tips and trics?????

 
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tips and trics????? - Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:04 AM
(#1)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
pls help me on this one, why does he keep calling????

*********** # 9 **************
PokerStarsspel #64290004112: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25 USD) - 08/07/2011 14:21:34 CET [08/07/2011 8:21:34 ET]
Tafel 'Geraldina II' 9-max Plaats #5 is de button
Plaats 1: dima_ds90 ($11.18 in chips)
Plaats 2: Genius4832 ($35.96 in chips)
Plaats 3: russo82 ($25.35 in chips)
Plaats 5: g_i_j_90 ($26.16 in chips)
Plaats 6: leggieblufs1 ($25 in chips)
Plaats 7: 77wopke77 ($35.95 in chips)
Plaats 8: babita_26 ($26.05 in chips)
Plaats 9: perimidon ($26.47 in chips)
leggieblufs1: zet small blind $0.10
77wopke77: zet big blind $0.25
*** GESLOTEN KAARTEN ***
Gedeeld aan 77wopke77 [9d Ts]
Tripci heeft geen verbinding
babita_26: foldt
perimidon: foldt
dima_ds90: foldt
Genius4832: foldt
russo82: foldt
g_i_j_90: raiset $0.37 naar $0.62
leggieblufs1: foldt
77wopke77: callt $0.37
*** FLOP *** [9c 2d 3s]
77wopke77: bet $0.89
g_i_j_90: callt $0.89
*** TURN *** [9c 2d 3s] [Tc]
77wopke77: bet $2.07
g_i_j_90: callt $2.07
*** RIVER *** [9c 2d 3s Tc] [8s]
77wopke77: bet $4.83
g_i_j_90: raiset $17.75 naar $22.58 en is all-in
77wopke77: callt $17.75
*** SHOWDOWN ***
g_i_j_90: toont [Qc Js] (een straight, Acht tot Vrouw)
77wopke77: toont [9d Ts] (twee pair, Tienen en Negens)
g_i_j_90 won $50.42 van pot
*** SAMENVATTING ***
Totale pot $52.42 | Rake $2
Board [9c 2d 3s Tc 8s]
Plaats 1: dima_ds90 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 2: Genius4832 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 3: russo82 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 5: g_i_j_90 (button) toonde [Qc Js] en won ($50.42) met een straight, Acht tot Vrouw
Plaats 6: leggieblufs1 (small blind) foldde voor de Flop
Plaats 7: 77wopke77 (big blind) toonde [9d Ts] en verloor met twee pair, Tienen en Negens
Plaats 8: babita_26 foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
Plaats 9: perimidon foldde voor de Flop (bette niet)
 
Old
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:18 AM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
He probably took your donk bet on the flop as a sign you were stealing, then at the turn he had an open ended straight draw.. and some people just will not fold ever if they are on a draw..unfortunate for you, 2 pair at the turn, and him with a pretty well hidden draw
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:20 AM
(#3)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
and by donk bet, it is your leading in to the pre flop raiser ... not any type of slam on you
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:28 AM
(#4)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
and by donk bet, it is your leading in to the pre flop raiser ... not any type of slam on you
was it so wrong to defend my BB?
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:30 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Answer: Because versus players who like to bemoan the fact that people call too often, and too deeply, there is "extra equity" from the entertainment value of the whining.

Actually, I'd love to suck out just once on Phil Hellmuth, and when he asks "why???" that is my answer.

The more improtant question for you to be asking is:

"Was there anything in my past play which would make him feel calling me on just over cards and a turned straight draw was ok?"

OR...

"Was I totally aware of the things I needed to be aware of when I decided to call a raise to play a drawing type spec hand out of position?"

OR...

"Maybe if I had re-raised to defend, rather than call, I might have had more leverage to make him "believe" me here?"

OR...

ETC...etc...etc...

(In short, examine your own play, and your own ability to EXPLOIT weak play in opponents, rather than be-moaning their poor play. That's something you cannot control, you can only control how you re-act to it...)
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:32 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77wopke77 View Post
was it so wrong to defend my BB?
...and CALLING is not a blind "defense".

It is a blind "click and pray I hit".

FYI.

It takes a bigger hand to call, than it does to bet or raise.

So even if you widen Villain's range to account for the fact he is on the button, your CALLING range probably shouldn;t be much lower than AJ or KQs.

If you are gunna play the T9 you did play, you are FAR better off raising it, since you are at least giving yourself the chance to represent a stronger hand than the one you hold.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 10:35 AM..
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:38 AM
(#7)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
...and CALLING is not a blind "defense".

It is a blind "click and pray I hit".

FYI.
ok tnx so tell me this:

Defending ur blinds starts with a raise???? in this case i should have started to fold!!

and after the river i never should have called i know!!
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:41 AM
(#8)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
sorry didn't read well!!

tnx mate for all the info!! have a lot to do i see lol
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:48 AM
(#9)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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it is always better to be the raiser pre flop, and JD is right, just calling is not defending your blind. And as I said earlier you leading into him on the flop can be taken as a steal attempt by you.. if you had re raised pre you might have made him a believer
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:52 AM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77wopke77 View Post
ok tnx so tell me this:

Defending ur blinds starts with a raise???? in this case i should have started to fold!!

and after the river i never should have called i know!!
Versus a middle position raiser, would you have called on a T9 out of the blind?

Probably not, since I'm pretty sure you recognize that playing hands which tend to flop lower top pair hands or DRAWS most often are very difficult to play out of position...

It would have been cheaper to just fold and wait for a better spot.

But when faced with a button open raiser, you are confronted with the chance he has a 'good" hand, one "worthy" of raising, or he is just trying to raise as a steal. By calling, you give yourself only 1 way to win the hand...you hold the best of it. Is T9 going to flop the "best of it" versus a raiser often enough for you to feel confidant in having that as your ONLY way to win?

The key point is, your T9 is NOT a "good hand" to play out of position. By raising you give him a CHANCE to fold a BETTER hand, either pre-flop, or on a wide range of flops when you C-Bet.
Calling "forces" you to hit.

You must also consider that on this depth of money, the opponent may have elected to call your flop bet (when you did flop top pair) on "just" over cards for the implied odds value inhernet in your large stack. When he saw the turn, he picked up even more "outs" in the form of an ooe straight draw, so he may have recognized with so little in the pot now, ad the fact YOU are betting every street, if he does hit the nuts, he is going to get paid big time.

The turn bet was only around 1/12th of the effective stack, so there was a LOT of potential money for him out there if he spikes that straight...

Had you RAISED pre-flop though, he does not feel as "comfortable" sticking around to draw to a Q or a J, and he never gets to see that ooe straight draw come...right?

Think about it...

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jul 08, 2011 at 10:54 AM..
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:56 AM
(#11)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
what he's saying I think is by CALLING with a spec hand like 10-9o in the bb your only giving yourself 1 way to win the hand.... by hitting, and actually having the best hand. and by raising you give yourself the lead and by making your hand "look" stronger than is actually is, you give him the opportunity to fold, either right then or on your flop bet, giving you a second way to win.
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 10:59 AM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
As a side note too:

If you defend your blinds with a raise TOO OFTEN, you lose effacacy from that play.

ALL players will tend to be long term LOSERS from the blinds, that is just the nature of Hold 'em.

If you defend too often in hopes of avoiding that fact, you will likely become extremely exploitable, and wind up losing even more from the blinds.

The key thing is to "accept" that the best you can do is approach "break even" from the blinds, and defend on good occasions (this one seems to be a pretty good occasion for it btw). but when you defend, defend STRONG. Don't "defend" passively with a hand you'd not play passively if you were out of position but NOT in the blinds.
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 11:02 AM
(#13)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
beat me to it jdean..lol man you type fast.. or maybe im just slow.. Lol so now we know im slow...and slow at typing too
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 11:02 AM
(#14)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
nice hand wopke, it has generated a good discussion it sure beats the usual why did my AA lose?
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 11:07 AM
(#15)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
nice hand wopke, it has generated a good discussion it sure beats the usual why did my AA lose?
+1 roomik
 
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Fri Jul 08, 2011, 11:18 AM
(#16)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Versus a middle position raiser, would you have called on a T9 out of the blind?

Probably not, since I'm pretty sure you recognize that playing hands which tend to flop lower top pair hands or DRAWS most often are very difficult to play out of position...

It would have been cheaper to just fold and wait for a better spot.

But when faced with a button open raiser, you are confronted with the chance he has a 'good" hand, one "worthy" of raising, or he is just trying to raise as a steal. By calling, you give yourself only 1 way to win the hand...you hold the best of it. Is T9 going to flop the "best of it" versus a raiser often enough for you to feel confidant in having that as your ONLY way to win?

The key point is, your T9 is NOT a "good hand" to play out of position. By raising you give him a CHANCE to fold a BETTER hand, either pre-flop, or on a wide range of flops when you C-Bet.
Calling "forces" you to hit.

You must also consider that on this depth of money, the opponent may have elected to call your flop bet (when you did flop top pair) on "just" over cards for the implied odds value inhernet in your large stack. When he saw the turn, he picked up even more "outs" in the form of an ooe straight draw, so he may have recognized with so little in the pot now, ad the fact YOU are betting every street, if he does hit the nuts, he is going to get paid big time.

The turn bet was only around 1/12th of the effective stack, so there was a LOT of potential money for him out there if he spikes that straight...

Had you RAISED pre-flop though, he does not feel as "comfortable" sticking around to draw to a Q or a J, and he never gets to see that ooe straight draw come...right?

Think about it...
Well this is indeed a better one then a the top pairs i've read past few days but i must say your right about the preflop raise. another lesson learned.

must say i like to try it with the connectors T9 or higher and i must say i don't try to defend every BB i get raised but this dude was playing on acid or something!! opening up 3 times pot with A4 or something, i mean just realy poor hands
i shall post the next one wich in this case i won from the same person and i draw lucky with 7777
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 08:35 PM
(#17)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
this is another bad beat story..........

lol why defend with 9-10 OOP? just fold next time.... there should be reasons for playing OOP

1. you feel you have an edge over the player/villain
2. Having a strong hand which alot of the time gets 3 bet pre
3. Set mining i think can be one also, some grinders even fold small pairs and instead play them in position or getting good odds pre to set mine.......
4. Obviously being priced in with a couple players in the hand

... and you need not to be donk betting so often, its a very common mistake.........there a spots to donk and youll learn when and who to donk with more hours put in your game..........

but yeah once you donk the river there is no way your folding there

UNlucky result.....
 

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