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K-6 vs AK

 
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K-6 vs AK - Sun Jul 10, 2011, 03:01 AM
(#1)
aman26's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 2
WhiteStar
ok this hand occured in a 2000$ tournament the weekly round 2 NL Hldm of this month. Table was playing tight. My image was extreme tight( only 17% hands played out of non blind positions.) and then the following two consecquitive hands occured. i was holding Q-10s in late middle position and opened for two big blind and the player next to me raised for 2 more. now i have played against this player quite a lot and i new he was playing tight. also i knew he wasnt holding AA or KK casue i have seen him smooth call with these two hands before. so i put him on QQ's. i called and flop came 10-J-K. Now he bet me and i new altough i was the underdog i decided to semi bluff him all in cause of the king and my straight draw. another reason was if i had just called i wouldnt have much chips anyways so i was pot committed. and the bluff was the only way to win the pot other wise i was gonna tie anyways. he called my all in and a 9 turned up on the river. Now this was great for me cause i ahd been playing tight and this was good advertising for me. anyways i had set myself up to win some big pot with a good hand. exactly my reason for playing the Q-10. BTW he was holding QQ's. The very next hand i got A-K and i open raised from late position same bet as before. Now again the same guy went all in.I would have to go all in to call. Now here's the thing he never plays that way with a strong hand. i had seen him tilting a few times before like this wen the board had counterfeited his good hand.I knew he was bluffing me. and i called him. Rest assured he was holding K-6'o. Well a 6 ended on the river and i got knocked out. Now was it a good play overall taking both hands into acct. Btw i played this was cause i was in late position and both the blinds were a bit passive.

Last edited by aman26; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 03:04 AM..
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 01:23 PM
(#2)
MSgtBakes's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 38
Semi-bluff is the wrong word...you have the guys hand pegged and if you're right, he's not folding. So, there's no bluff. The hand is going to showdown. You have 25% equity if you're right and he calls. Since you're committed, bottom pair and a draw is not a bad hand to go with. You could be wrong about the QQ read and he could have 99 or worse. Unlikely, but, could happen. Fortunately, you realized your equity and cracked the Q's. Most of the time you get it in with the worst hand, your hand will hold up and you'll get broke.

The only issue I have is, if you knew he had QQ when he 3 bet, why did you call preflop? You're not committed there unless your initial raise was committing. If it was, then why not shove preflop? You'll still run into QQ, hand ends the same.

By calling the 3bet, you've put yourself in a position to play a 3bet pot, out of position against a bigger stack (who you KNOW has you beat) with a marginal hand. That's not on the road map to any final table I've ever played.

So, you lock horns with the same opponent again, and he still has you covered. You wake up with AK and your raise induces a bluff shove...that's BETTER, congrats! Now all there is to do is call and double up. He gets lucky and river hits him perfect, nothing you can do, you played the AK perfectly!

Last edited by MSgtBakes; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 01:27 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
in the first hand, if you put them on QQ, then there is no way you should ever call with Q 10 preflop because you're dominated. You got really, really lucky because you're an 8-1 underdog!

The second one, you made the right play with them shoving with nothing and called with the opponent dominated. You called them being on tilt correctly and got unlucky.
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 02:59 PM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aman26 View Post
ok this hand occured in a 2000$ tournament the weekly round 2 NL Hldm of this month. Table was playing tight. My image was extreme tight( only 17% hands played out of non blind positions.) and then the following two consecquitive hands occured. i was holding Q-10s in late middle position and opened for two big blind and the player next to me raised for 2 more. now i have played against this player quite a lot and i new he was playing tight. also i knew he wasnt holding AA or KK casue i have seen him smooth call with these two hands before. so i put him on QQ's. i called and flop came 10-J-K. Now he bet me and i new altough i was the underdog i decided to semi bluff him all in cause of the king and my straight draw. another reason was if i had just called i wouldnt have much chips anyways so i was pot committed. and the bluff was the only way to win the pot other wise i was gonna tie anyways. he called my all in and a 9 turned up on the river. Now this was great for me cause i ahd been playing tight and this was good advertising for me. anyways i had set myself up to win some big pot with a good hand. exactly my reason for playing the Q-10. BTW he was holding QQ's. The very next hand i got A-K and i open raised from late position same bet as before. Now again the same guy went all in.I would have to go all in to call. Now here's the thing he never plays that way with a strong hand. i had seen him tilting a few times before like this wen the board had counterfeited his good hand.I knew he was bluffing me. and i called him. Rest assured he was holding K-6'o. Well a 6 ended on the river and i got knocked out. Now was it a good play overall taking both hands into acct. Btw i played this was cause i was in late position and both the blinds were a bit passive.
First...
17% VPiP outside of the blinds is NOT playing "extremely tightly".

You are still entering, on average, 1.19 pots per orbit, EVERY ORBIT, at a Stars 9 handed table from the 7 non blind positions.

While definately not extremely LOOSE either, 17% VPiP really should not be used as baseline for you to assume observant players will automatically "credit" you with an extremely strong hand.

17% could actually be pretty close to optimal for an opportunistic TAG style (it is probably just a TOUCH high, but not bad), as long as any widening in the range occurs in position.

To put it into perspective, a 17% range could consist of ANY pp down to 55, or any 2 broadway cards.

Per Poker stove, if you assign a 17% range they give: Any pp down to 66, Any suited A down to A5, Off suit Aces down to AT, any 2 broadway cards suited or not except JTo, PLUS Q9s and K9s. This is 17.3% of hands.

Do you still see that as "extremely tight"?

NEXT...
(ACTUAL Hand History really helps, as your play decisions quite often become "good" or "bad" in relation to seemingly small things)

Raising QTs may, or may not be "ok" for you in late middle position (exactly what seat were you in, and how many to act after you? How many chips did you have? etc...).

The raise sizing you select (if all other factors point to a raise being ok) also is greatly effected by your stack size, and the post flop "play" your stack has. While it may seem counter-intuitive to say, you really do NOT want to be playing MTT poker by "seeking out" all-in situations (you can only go out if you are all-in afterall), but the SHORTER your stack is, the EARLIER in the hand you will probably be getting all-in.

Suffice it to say, there really is not enough info here to truly analyize your play, BUT...

When you raise holding QTs with people to act behind you, and someone whom you perceive to be "tight" re-raises you, there almost NOTHING you are ahead of in his range. By saying this I am using your own impression of a 17% range as "tight". Versus this range you have just 38.3%equity (chance to out draw by the river).

When you then further consider that your 17% "tight range" is for pre-flop situations, most often when the 17% player will be opening the pot, the fact you had already RAISED is going to "tighten" his raise range even more than 17%...see?

Versus YOUR 17% range, the Gap Concept in Poker states that sometimes you'll raise the top end of your range, and sometimes the bottom or middle. In order for HIM to 3Bet you, he would probably need about HALF your open range (8.5%) to feel "confident" about raising you pretty small (he min raised) because he WANTS a call.

If you frequently fold to 3Bets, he might go a bit wider than 8.5% for a 3Bet, but if he is wider than 10% he is probably making a "mistake" to raise so small, and so strongly "invite" a call from you. See?

Versus a 10% range, your QTs falls to about 35% equity, and versus an 8.5% range you have roughly 34% equity.

All these equity thoughts "assume" you will get to see all 5 cards as well by the way, and THAT is not going to be "cheap" very often in a pot that starts as a 3Bet per-flop...

NEXT...
What you see above is an example of "ranging" an opponent.

In your original post, you state that you put him on QQ; doing THAT sort of "ranging", picking one EXACT hand for your opponent, is usually a "mistake".

Not only will you be "wrong" far more often than not (even the top pro's if they did that, would be wrong far more often than right), you will "blind" yourself both to potential "threats" AND potential "possibilities" by assigining JUST a specific hand to your opponent.

What if he held AQ on this board? Then your QT is is REALLY bad shape, drawing to just 3 Aces for HALF the pot.

What if he held 88 here? Then your semi-bluff has a really good chance of taking down the pot with an immediate lead bet. If you check, he will not give you the chance to check/raise very often at all.

You see, poker is a game of INCOMPLETE INFORMATION, and failing to account for all possibilities in your ranging of opponents is "wishful thinking". The fact you put him on QQ, and he HAD QQ is immaterial...sometimes a blind squirrel does find a nut!

He could have almost as easily held JJ/TT/AQ/AK/99 even if we use your tendency "read" info to discount AA/KK as smooth call hands for him pre-flop. You may want to WEIGHT QQ more than any of these, but totally discounting others hands besides QQ from being there is not good ranging at all.

Each of these hands presents you with a different "chance to win", and it is within this cloud of possibilities your actual chance to win lies.

You shouldn't "pick" 99 as your exact opponent's hand, because you are well AHEAD of that hand now, and accounting for only that case leaves you vulnerable.

You also shouldn't pick "just" AQ, because against that hand you have only 3 outs to a chop versus that hand.

You shouldn't pick just QQ either, because again, you have a different number of outs.

You should assign a likely RANGE, and the assumption you should work in is that your real chance to win is the sum of a WEIGHTED AVERAGE of all likely possibilities.

NEXT...
While I do not see your play of the QTs hand as very "good" (you should have gotten away from it pre-flop really, especially after a tight player raised), the fact you recognize the "advertising" benefits of a "mistake" is very good.

Whether or not calling an all-in with AK is good or not is really dependant in large part on the depth of money, and the stage of the tourney you are in, but from your indications you were pretty short...AK is usually jsut fine to call an all in with when you are under 10 to 15BB and in a middle stage of the MTT. Consider...

1) You "need" the chips from a double up (without exact chip stacks we cannot know how MUCH you need 'em, but let's assume you do need 'em).

2) Your prior suck out for the chop vs QQ will tend to tilt a lot of people, and even if it doesn;t, it may serve at least to WIDEN their perceived play range for you.

3) Even versus the very tight 8.5% range we assigned this opponent versus the full value (prior to the advertisement play) of your 17% range, your AKo (if it was off suit) holds 55.4% equity.

4) If we go with the slightly wider range for the opponent of 10% (which is wider because it may include some fold equity from you), your equity climbs to 57.8%.

5) the only effect your pretty "wild" play of QTs can have is to INCREASE your overall equity over these numbers.

So YES...jamming AKo (worst case, since you didn't state if it was suited or not) is the "right" play for a short stack that needs a double up.

What these 2 hands show VERY CLEARLY is simple:

Sometimes you can make a LOT of "mistakes" and still wind up with a favorable outcome (when you chopped the weak QT hand).

Sometimes you can make NO mistakes, and end up losing.

This is why poker as a game is different than Chess (a game of COMPLETE INFORMATION); "luck".

The key to "winning" poker is to minimize your mistakes, and maximize your positive equity decisions. Doing this will not SAVE you from losses, but in the long run you will tend to win more than you lose.

And winning more is what you want, right?

Last edited by JDean; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 03:08 PM..
 
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Mon Jul 11, 2011, 02:59 AM
(#5)
aman26's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 2
WhiteStar
Thanks all you guys for your replies.Yeah i now see the point of view you guys have put forward.Really appreciate the input
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 10:20 PM
(#6)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Hmm not enough info its all quiet vague but heres what i can see:

Your hand selection preflop is bad imo just fold Q10 that early in a tourny, it is trash and you will be dominated by players in general who 3 bet you and leave yourself in a ugly position OOP.......

I dont get how you think you can say that you read a player to have QQ just because you saw him flat AA and KK before, really?...... thats not really how reading a player should occur......what you should be doing is thinking about what range of hands villain could be 3 betting you with, then from there re evaluate once the flop hits......

Also when you check that flop and raise all in, Considering no 4 bet pre it would be silly to put u on AK,KK,JJ,QQ,AA and at times AQ........your perceived range in general would be capped on a flop like this ie i would put u : 10-10, QJ, KQ, AJ, small - mid pairs and of coarse ur pure bluffs (but i think that would be rare you wouldn't want to be playing trash against someone like this)..........thats about all you can have at this point and imo villain should be calling off his K's here if thats what you were trying to bluff him off, really the only K i c him folding is K9 and K8 which arnt even in his 3 bet range considering hes tight lol............... every K in his 3 bet range should be snap calling ie KQ,KJ,AK,KK,K10.....he could also easily have AQ here 2, but given ur Q10 i gues it becomes a lil more unlikely....the only hands that would make sense to be able to bluff him off could only be pocket pairs that miss, but even if so are pairs not higher than 10s in his 3 bet range??? if so is he the type of player to c bet boards when missing or checks behind?.generally from the sounds of villain i think not..... then again you like dont have that much info on your opponent really.........

His value bet range here is most definantly alot wider than his bluff range and im dead sure his bluffing freqeuncy is close to zero lol....... so i would say overall its -ev to be bluffing a player this tight on that board it would seem abit bingoish.....there are better spots just be patient........... you did say he was a tight player too, which leads me to believe hes a bad rock and was going with this hand all along......
ignoring the fact that he had QQ of coarse......

bit of a wierd hand tho lol u may have left out details but we can never known i guess :P

so yeh my advise is to not play marginal hands like Q10 early in a tourny like that and also think about ranges........just put in more hours

Goodluck freind

Oku_ha_fools

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Wed Jul 27, 2011 at 10:59 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 10:52 PM
(#7)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
And imo that AK vs K-6 hand is just unfortunant, you should be glad that he randomly ships it and you have AK to call in that spot..........not a fan of folding AK unless im more than 100bb deep and its for a big portion of my stack vs a rock or very good regular
 

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