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Micro-Stakes Tourney (Bubble/ITM) - Passive Caller Raises On The River - Call/Fold?

 
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Micro-Stakes Tourney (Bubble/ITM) - Passive Caller Raises On The River - Call/Fold? - Sun Jul 10, 2011, 03:32 PM
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Ever found yourself in a tough situation without player reads? Like you've got a strong hand, but it's not the absolute nuts, and somebody who's been passively calling, suddenly shows surprisingly strong interest out of position on the river (they raise more than you'd tend to raise with the hand you have, which is a strong hand). Reasons for not having player reads, might be because:

1) You just got moved to the table
2) The person's been playing mostly short-stacked (all-in or fold), and just suddenly has a playable stack
3) People just don't seem to be getting hands at the same time, so play has basically been straight-forward (somebody raises, everybody else folds)
4) The person's in the blinds, so they could have anything
5) The game's gotten long, and you're tired

You think it's +EV or -EV in such situations, where money is now a very real consideration, to as a blanket rule fold when facing a river raise like this? Because I've been looking through my hand histories trying to find situations like this where I've called and actually won the hand, and can't seem to find any! Here's some examples:





I guess some other alternatives to folding post-flop might be to:
1) Fold pre-flop
2) Not raise post-flop
3) Raise pre-flop

Thanks for the ideas everybody

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 03:34 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 03:55 PM
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the 55 hand... nothing you could do. Chalk that one up to bad luck, move on and keep playing the same way.

A8. When they called the flop bet, you really need to be wary of their hand. The only hands that should be calling it are a flush draw (that hits on the turn), an A that will have you outkicked, 2 pair or a set. Like the check behind on the turn, as you're most-likely behind. I'd have folded to the river bet, because basically everything in their range still beats you. All that the A on the river does is to lower the chance that your opponent has a bigger ace. There are still way too many things that would have called the flop bet, that you're behind.
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
the 55 hand... nothing you could do. Chalk that one up to bad luck, move on and keep playing the same way.

A8. When they called the flop bet, you really need to be wary of their hand. The only hands that should be calling it are a flush draw (that hits on the turn), an A that will have you outkicked, 2 pair or a set. Like the check behind on the turn, as you're most-likely behind. I'd have folded to the river bet, because basically everything in their range still beats you. All that the A on the river does is to lower the chance that your opponent has a bigger ace. There are still way too many things that would have called the flop bet, that you're behind.

JW I'm in total agreement on the A8 hand but I gotta disagree on the 5's. Sam you need to be raising and not limping there. I would probably do my whatever my standard raise at this point was + 1 BB. Pretty sure you do that and the 85o hand is in the muck. And scooping the blinds with 55 is NEVER a bad outcome.
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
the 55 hand... nothing you could do. Chalk that one up to bad luck, move on and keep playing the same way.

A8. When they called the flop bet, you really need to be wary of their hand. The only hands that should be calling it are a flush draw (that hits on the turn), an A that will have you outkicked, 2 pair or a set. Like the check behind on the turn, as you're most-likely behind. I'd have folded to the river bet, because basically everything in their range still beats you. All that the A on the river does is to lower the chance that your opponent has a bigger ace. There are still way too many things that would have called the flop bet, that you're behind.
Oh that's great advice JWK

That second hand, I was really tired - I didn't even notice the flush until you mentioned it just now My hand wasn't nearly as strong a hand as I remembered it to be.

Also, after reading your analysis I just realized how much lately I've been playing by my 'gut' rather than going through the ranging and putting people on hands. I guess the more straight-forward hands are more forgiving (and the stakes aren't so high). But with these more complicated hands (wet boards), or playing against tricker players (who mask hands), that's not going to cut it.

I should have taken my time and really thought things through

That helped a lot - thanks JWK
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
JW I'm in total agreement on the A8 hand but I gotta disagree on the 5's. Sam you need to be raising and not limping there. I would probably do my whatever my standard raise at this point was + 1 BB. Pretty sure you do that and the 85o hand is in the muck. And scooping the blinds with 55 is NEVER a bad outcome.
That's another possibility ... I'm kind of torn because generally I:

1) Will treat play that's been folded to the blinds, when it's just me and the other blind, like a head-to-head. And head-to-head, 55's in pretty good shape against any two random cards. I guess one advantage of a raise, even if they still call would be that I'd get to see how long they take to call if they call, so there'd be info too ...

2) Avoid getting in too deep with the big stacks (since they'll raise a lot, tend to not fold as much, can put you all-in)

So I'm kind of torn ... it's a definite alternative ( <---- thinking )

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 04:29 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
That's another possibility ... I'm kind of torn because generally I:

1) Will treat play that's been folded to the blinds, when it's just me and the other blind, like a head-to-head. And head-to-head, 55's in pretty good shape against any two random cards. I guess one advantage of a raise, even if they still call would be that I'd get to see how long they take to call if they call, so there'd be info too ...

2) Avoid getting in too deep with the big stacks (since they'll raise a lot, tend to not fold as much, can put you all-in)

So I'm kind of torn ... it's a definite alternative ( <---- thinking )

Always number 1 Sam. Two reasons one of which you already mentioned---information. When you limp you're severely curtailing the information that you could be getting from making the villain react to a raise. You bet out here and he re-pops you then even if you have enough of a read on him to give him credit for a hand and fold it still will be less costly in the long run,more often than not.

The second reason is more direct---raising gives you another way to win a pot besides showing down the best hand. That's something I keep learning more and more myself---that it's almost always better to act with aggression if one is going to act at all,ESPECIALLY to open a pot.
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 05:38 PM
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Hand #1:
With 55, and a stack of under 15BB (~13BB), you do not really want to play a pot post flop without a CLEAR indication you are ahead.

This is true because:
1) 55 will almost never be an over pair to the board (there will almost ALWAYS be at least 1, and more often 2+, overcards on the flop)

2) 55 will only flop a set roughly 1 in 8.5 hands.
Absent calling range reads on an opponent, there ARE reasons both to call (as you did), and also to open jam. Your stack is really too small to "standard raise", then fold though...

Of course depending upon which you choose, there are "implications" you cannot avoid.

For a CALL, the main implications are: "no set, no bet".

By electing to enter for half a bet, you are trying to keep the pot SMALL.

With your stack size, folding away that 1/2 bet is not yet "disasterous" for you, and limping in does give you a chance at flopping a set you can pretty easily commit to in most all cases.

You must accept that your desire to keep the pot small entails that you must FOLD if the Villain here re-raises pre-flop, and that you ALSO cannot leverage bluff/semi-bluff value very easily.

Your flop check is fine, and in keeping with the "plan" you should have had pre-flop to limp.

Your turn semi-bluff though has little chance of "working" very well, and is going to put you in an awkwad spot a lot of the time if called. The only other thing that will happen is that you'll tend to fold out WORSE hands that you are ahead of already, and who are drawing quite thinly now.

Consider...
- You have no info to tell you how often the villain will CALL with just bottom pair (4s). This is all you are ahead of on the turn.

- You have no info on how often he will FOLD hands like 2nd pair behind your flop check, or strong draws (8 or 9 out'ers+ with over cards) when you lay him a bit over 2 to 1 odds with a bet on the turn. These are the hands you MIGHT get to fold out.

- You cannot INCREASE your fold equity on the turn by betting significantly more than you did because you lack the info and hand strength to launch a committing amount confidently, because betting significantly more to increase FE would entail a pot over-bet pretty un-likely to get called by worse, and because your failure to raise PRE-FLOP kept the pot too SMALL to exert much "bluff leverage" on it now.

Your semi-bluff shot would have probably been better if:

1) You have even slightly MORE chips.
Even a 20BB stack leaves you room to put 2.5 BB here without it being a "lot" of your stack 2.5BB is right about 20% of your start stack here though.

2) You have POSITION in the hand.
Had you position, you'd have "seen" 2 checks by the Villain (if he had checked a 2nd time), not one. This gives you a stronger indication that a bet now would tend to fold out over card draws that MIGHT spike him, thus reducing a lot of the draw out "threats" to your win of a decent sized pot for your stack. LACKING the info of him checking twice though, you cannot really assess the chance he will RE-RAISE, which is the "real" danger of a semi-bluff shot oop.

So...
By deviating from the "keep the pot small" thought you should have held to limp in on, you left yourself 'card dependant" and with a LARGER "chip exposure" than you had to when he called. You'd have been far better served to check the re-draw you picked up, and saw what the villain was going to do. If he bets tiny, you MIGHT be willing to call...but anything more than "tiny" and you should have folded to stick to your "original" plan.

For a JAM, the main implications are: "You live and die on what he will CALL with"

Yes, you do not have info on how WIDE he will call, because you lack reads.

But you DO "know" that if the Villain calls a jam by you and LOSES, he will drop about 50% of his stack (a bit under).

This is a pretty powerful "threat" to him, and should serve to fold out a lot of "race" hands that you'd "normally" see calling when held by the "typical" micro stakes player. While you shouldn't MIND a race from the good side too much, you also shouldn't mind picking up better than a 10% stack increase WITHOUT showing down anything either.

The reason why I stated above that I do not like a standard raise amount with 55 here is:

1) a raise to 3 x BB will put you very near a committment point.

2) a raise which does NOT put you that near a committment point is NOT likely to fold out a lot of the races you'd HAVE to then play post flop with (at least you lack the info to assess this strongly, and so I fall back on typical "weak" micro stakes caller tendencies).

3) you are NOT feeling "good" about open jamming on most flops with 55.

As stated earlier, your stack size simply does not WANT to play post flop poker without a clear indication it is "ahead"; since 55 does not give that indication in most cases, you are better off shoving if you are going to raise at all. Consider...

1) 55 is ahead of ALL un-paired hands.

Yes, your stack is not yet so short you really want to "court" races for all your chips (you can probably find better spots still), you also cannot simply pass up a lot of chances to add 10% without fighting for it. If taking that blind for the chip up means you do find yourself in an all-in race...so be it.

2) The BB is on a RANDOM HAND.

The only hands ahead of you are pp 66+. Those represent just 4.1% of all start hands, which means almost 96% of the time he will NOT have a hand better than yours is now.

So...
I've outlined where I think you went "wrong" in this hand, and the things you should be thinking to avoid the "cooler" situation which happened.

I'll be honest, if the BB checks BEHIND you on the turn (had you checked), you are probably still going bust when your straight fills.

With you holding 2 x 5's, you are "blocking" a likely chop here.

and...

With the ONLY straight on this board, and the only hand period, that can beat you being exactly 85, you are certainly short enough to go after you made that 150 turn bet. Without making that 150 turn bet the combination of these last 2 factors STILL says "call", but...

It was the turn 150 you led into his better hand that caused him to NOT give you a chance to fold and avoid the "cooler"...see?

Hand #2:

You did nuttin' wrong here at all that I see.

With a hand deriving much of its value from drawing potential, you elect to put a very small portion of your deep stack at "risk" to speculate.

You have position.

You have the "fit or fold" draw potential to make entering a probably multi-way pot pontentially very profitable.

You have the stack which makes your entry quite "cheap".

That is the exact way you are "supposed" to play speculative hands.

With JUST the cut-off limper, you CAN "make a case" for raising your A8h for value here, but if you lack reads which say what CO Villain will limp, there is not"need" to pressure EVERY pot. No one is extremely short here, so as long as your are mixing up your play in this type of situation (raising sometimes, calling to speculate others), there is nothing bad to be said about your choice.

You then get the multi-way cheap pot that says play your hand like a drawing hand.

As long as you know that the imminent creation of a "big pot" will tend to negate a lot of your top pair value (if you spike top pair) because of your weak kicker, you are not going to go "barrelling" heavily if someone leads in front of you on the flop. So all is well with your "plan" (if you've created it in your head, like you should be doing)...

Flop comes A high with 2 clubs as the only real draw threat (only gut shot straight draws are there besides the flush draw).

When it checks to you, there is nothing "wrong" with you thinking your ace might be the only A there, and the best hand. You do NOT want to bet super hard here though, because you lack reads of the potential "slow players" in the pot with you, but your 18k bet into the 36.8k pot is just about 'prefect":

- It denies odds to flush draws, but still allows them to feel "invited" to call incorrectly.

- It does not represent a large part of your stack, so you do not bloat the pot and "stick yourself" if someone commits on you.

- It might seem weak enough to get calls from lesser hands, like 2nd pairs or weaker aces, because you are on the button.

You get just 1 caller...

Turn throws up the 3rd club though, and now you gotta re-assess...

When the remaining Villain checks to you, there is no "need" to barrell another half pot bet to "define" your hand. The Villain is either ahead of you, or behind you now, with flush draw calls on the flop making up a pretty good part of his range.

If he hit the flush, all banging is going to do is possibly get him to check/raise you, or even flat call to delay a tiny value bet on the river that you probably will make a "crying call" against a lot of the time.

Either way, you are just "inflating" the pot for him since you have so little shot at improving to a winner if he is ahead.

If YOU are ahead, it is probably because he holds a hand with very little chance of drawing out. By checking, you MIGHT induce him to make a small river bet that you can call, and snap off a hand like K9.

This is a prototypical "reverse implied odds" situation, where all a bet is going to do is fold out WORSE hands, and cost you more than it has to versus better ones. Afterall, with "just" a 9 here, that 3rd club most often represents a hit by YOU if you didn't have an Ace when you bet the flop...so a 9 can no longer call you...see?

(note: per the actual results, there is a TINY chance an uber-nit will muck a set here, but even those guys will often call a cheap bet in this size pot for the chance to boat draw on the river. This means even versus the uber-nits of the world, you'll need to barrell all 3 streets for just about any chance to fold out his set. Of course with the river pairing, that chance evaporated anyway.)

So I really like your check to control the pot size.

The River comes another A, and you make trips.

Villain leads for a bit over half pot (40k into a 72.8k pot), and you are on a decision...

He MIGHT hold the flush or better.
(yuck, if so you were behind the whole way from the turn on, and he has got you)

He MIGHT hold a better Ace.
(if so, how could he NOT bet the flop to get value from club draws or weaker aces?)

He MIGHT think the A pairing on the river lessens your chance of having an Ace, and added to your turn check he might think a 9 or T is good here.
(this is what you "need" to see to win, but pretty much nothing in the paly to this point has indicated that this is NOT possible. So lacking reads, this is about as likely as a hand being slow-played.)

It all boils down to the fact that the Villain either knows he is ahead and is value betting, or he thinks he is ahead and is wrong, or is on an airball bluff.

Since you cannot really use reads to weight these, you gotta look at 2 factors:

- Effect of a loss on your stack
(Losing 40k more here is not great for you, but it is hardly a killer. You'll still have 490k, still be the chip leader, and will have given yourself at least a chance of snapping off a bluff. So losing that extra 40k is much less "damaging" to you than passing up the chance to win this pot too often would be.)

- Pot odds
(you have to call 40k for a chance to win 112.8k. That is 2.82 to 1 odds. This means you must be "right" only 26.2% of the time to 'break even" on this call, or a bit over 1 time in 4. Without reads, I think I'd be entirely happy with thinking I have a better than 1 in 4 chance that a micro stakes palyer is either bluffing, or on just a 9 or T here.)

I think overall the 2nd hand was played very well by you.

You started with a consistent plan, and followed all the dictates of that plan.

You did lose the pot, but the loss was not crippling for you, and you did not cost yourself extra for the chance to win a very nice sized pot either.

You see how differently the results can be by "seeing" what the implcations of your early decisions might have on your later ones?

Like a chess-master who "thinks ahead", you too should think ahead when you enter a pot about not just what you WANT to happen, but also what MIGHT happen, or is most likely to happen. It is all about having the ability to formulate a plan, and stick to that plan.

nice post.

Last edited by JDean; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 05:45 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 07:45 PM
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Oh wow! I just went out to a street fair for a bit and came back and saw all the extra info you guys posted - thank you, thank you!!

I read it over, and it looks really valuable, but I think i'm gonna need to read it over again a couple of times to make sure I absorbed it all... lots to ponder!!




 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 11:51 PM
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[double post]


Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 11:56 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 10, 2011, 11:52 PM
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I went to try out some of the ideas at $1.50 STT, to sort of try them out for size - and it went really well!!!

When the table was down to 3 of us, I raised 88 rather than limp like I usually do, and both the blinds folded

In a way, like JD was considering, I guess it can be more stack-risky to do the raise upfront like that. But in a way, I guess it can be less stack-risky to do it upfront too, depending on who's in the blinds, how often they'll call/fold. I like the idea of having some flexibility there, depending on the people. Or even in the middle of the game, just mixing it up just to avoid being predictable.

Then again 88's stronger than 55, I had position this time, and I had a better feel for the players. So it wasn't exactly the same sort of situation, but it was sort of the same. Same stack size. But I thought it went really well!

On a less than progressive note, old habits die hard. I raised 44 post-flop out of position with 3 overs on the board ... and got away with it this time! 6-max can be a little different in that the hands tend to be really bad, so there's a lot of small-ball like that when nobody really likes their cards and nobody's making hands. But now that I think about it, raising in those kinds of situations might be more of a leak than a net positive. I think I'm going to try to cool it on pushing it so much in those marginal situations.

And then, I made another straight, and was so good about not betting the turn because the turn gave 3 to a flush. But then after the villain checked on the river, I couldn't resist putting more chips into the middle, and you guessed it ... fooled again!! Arrrghhh

Work in progress! I'm going to have to keep reading and rereading these suggestions, then go back and try them on for size. I feel like they're already helping


Hand #2 - I like the idea of letting potential stack loss and pot odds be an additional consideration. I like JWK's idea first of remembering to range, and be vigilant of the wet board. Then, at least if I decide the odds might favor a call, I won't be totally shocked to see that I was behind the entire time - and that there were so many hands I was behind!!

I haven't been going into hands with a plan either - I did in this last game though! I 3bet somebody pre-flop with my KK and they called and bet out when the flop had the A, and I insta-folded without all the sobbing and crying I usually need to unload in the chat box before I can let go of the hand. Because I had gone into the hand with the plan that if the A flopped and they bet out, the KK's would be useless. And that felt really good - helped minimize the tilt factor that comes from feeling caught by surprise.

You know how I ended up coming in 4th after being the chip leader in that second hand, was because I made that small call, when if I had been ranging I just might have folded. And then went a little bit on tilt and made an even more colossal mistake that cost me a big ton of chips. So I'll have to try to do that more often ... just be more prepared for what might unfold post-flop.

Lots to practice!! Fun to learn new things though ... thanks again everybody for the great tips!!! +EV!!!
 
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Mon Jul 11, 2011, 01:45 PM
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^^ the kind of post that mkes trying to pass info on in h=the HA forum worthwhile!

To actually see someone trying out the concepts dicussed. No one is "right" all the time, so the things here may not "work" all the time, but if you "failed" doing one thing, and someone points out a possible way to do somethign differently, it is usually worth a TRY.

So ty for that post...
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 12:46 AM
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The play in PSO is so tight - I just played a PSO Tourney and only played 3 hands in 2 hours (not including the blinds). So when I play a lot of PSO, there's not a lot that needs to be analyzed because there's nothing to analyze haha! But I may have more hands coming because I'm planning on trying some new stuff that's still -EV ... MTT's, maybe some heads-up. And those STT 6-max are always a whirlwind of excitement I try to take time to really practice what you guys suggest though, so sometimes that takes time

But it's been really helpful to be able to get this personal feedback - I really appreciate all the thought and time and effort everybody puts into their responses
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 01:26 AM
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Moxie Pip's Avatar
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Originally Posted by JDean View Post
^^ the kind of post that mkes trying to pass info on in h=the HA forum worthwhile!

To actually see someone trying out the concepts dicussed. No one is "right" all the time, so the things here may not "work" all the time, but if you "failed" doing one thing, and someone points out a possible way to do somethign differently, it is usually worth a TRY.

So ty for that post...
+1 on what JDean is saying here. It's great to see a post where everyone is contributing their insights and they're being considered and respected. My line on the 5's WOULD tend to be a little more aggressive,but I can see the reasoning in JW and JD's lines as well.

Just a great,great thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post


The play in PSO is so tight - I just played a PSO Tourney and only played 3 hands in 2 hours (not including the blinds). So when I play a lot of PSO, there's not a lot that needs to be analyzed because there's nothing to analyze haha! But I may have more hands coming because I'm planning on trying some new stuff that's still -EV ... MTT's, maybe some heads-up. And those STT 6-max are always a whirlwind of excitement I try to take time to really practice what you guys suggest though, so sometimes that takes time

But it's been really helpful to be able to get this personal feedback - I really appreciate all the thought and time and effort everybody puts into their responses
Ya keep 'em coming,LOL.

Remember though that hand ranging and push/fold decision points in MTT's and single table SNG's are as different as night and day. If I can make a suggestion try and find a couple steady money makers in the SNG realm (mine were the 45 and 90 mans,but that's me---had a nice run going in the $1.11 50/50's right before the date that shall not be mentioned going as well,around +35%---think you'll find those even softer now with a heavier mix of eastern Euros in them).

Reason being if you can find a couple "go-to" games in these the variance will tend to be much less than in the MTT's. I'm a big advocate of using SNG's to be the steady BR feeder games and go for the big "pops" in the MTT's (nice 4th in the .25 ($100 added) the other night BTW I had one in that back in March,almost 900 more peeps and I only got $6 more than you for yours,lol Love that tourney).

The way I see it is that if you can consistently beat an SNG or 2 (or more,why not?) then the money that you win there will fund your MTT excursions and you can focus on deep runs in those,which is precisely what your focus in an MTT SHOULD be. That's not to say to chuck a min-cash if the cards never came and you can limp in for your money back,plus a little,but going in you always should be looking to go big in MTT's. But if you sit in MTT's comfortable in the knowledge that you essentially "freerolled" in on the money you took off peeps in your "bank" games then it becomes all that much easier. Proper mental outlook being a huge factor,IMO.

Take your time looking around at what games are available in the buy-in range that you're looking to play,see if there are some that fit your strengths as a player. Remember at the mini-micro levels there are a lot of bad players,don't try to beat them by playing their game,make them try to beat you at playing yours. YOU have the advantage,don't give it away.

Got any questions feel free to hit me up on a PM at anytime.

Good luck and kick ass.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Tue Jul 12, 2011 at 01:30 AM..
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 02:34 AM
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FYI Pip...

With that 55 hand, I think I'd be inclined toward a shove in a blind on blind situation...not the limp n look play.

...but then I tend to be aggressive by nature.

I only went into the long speil about the call because a) it is what trusty did, and b) there ARE "justifications" for it...as long as you know the implications...

The only thing I think is "bad" in that hand would be a standard raise to open...
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 03:03 AM
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See again why I'm digging this thread.

Yeah JD I saw that you made a case for the call and a jam as well. For me I like the standard raise play as it does give me the chance of getting a fold for the bet AND leave me the opportunity to bail if he comes along (and I flop bad,which is very likely) or raises. Say I 3x bet and have to then get away from it. I still have 10.5 BB's left and while THAT would put me squarely in push/fold range there's at least a decent chance that something better than pocket 5's will come along to make that stand. Just for me,13.5 BB's is JUST an inch on that side of not shipping the 5's.

That said I can definitely see the logic in jamming it with as much fold equity as possible and if they turn over any non-paired hand taking my chances on the flip.Especially because of the high probability of the flop being very difficult for pocket 5's to play,and out of position to boot. It's a close call for me to be sure,but at 13.5 BB's and only one player to act behind me,for myself I'm leaning towards just making the standard bet but it's a situation where I'd probably jam just about as often. Just with 55 I cotton to having a little more CYA in the hand myself I guess,lol.

For me personally the one play that I don't like is the call. Open limping is something that I just tried more and more to move away from and only do as the the occasional "mix-it-up" play. And I rarely,I mean RARELY,do it from the SB myself.

This thread rocks.
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 10:19 AM
(#16)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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The other thing with the 55 hand..... depending on the opponents/reads/their plays.... about anyone could make a valid reason for calling, raising OR shoving with them. About the only thing I think we'd all agree on is not mucking them immediately.
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 10:40 AM
(#17)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
The other thing with the 55 hand..... depending on the opponents/reads/their plays.... about anyone could make a valid reason for calling, raising OR shoving with them. About the only thing I think we'd all agree on is not mucking them immediately.
ding ding ding ding!

Bit TOO short to muck 55 in a blind v. blind confrontation!
 
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Tue Jul 12, 2011, 02:38 PM
(#18)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
The other thing with the 55 hand..... depending on the opponents/reads/their plays.... about anyone could make a valid reason for calling, raising OR shoving with them. About the only thing I think we'd all agree on is not mucking them immediately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
ding ding ding ding!

Bit TOO short to muck 55 in a blind v. blind confrontation!

With apologies to John Duce...

I haven't mucked ANY pair since 1979.

(OK it's funnier with a Borat avatar to go with it...)
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 12:55 AM
(#19)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post

Ya keep 'em coming,LOL.

Remember though that hand ranging and push/fold decision points in MTT's and single table SNG's are as different as night and day. If I can make a suggestion try and find a couple steady money makers in the SNG realm (mine were the 45 and 90 mans,but that's me---had a nice run going in the $1.11 50/50's right before the date that shall not be mentioned going as well,around +35%---think you'll find those even softer now with a heavier mix of eastern Euros in them).

Reason being if you can find a couple "go-to" games in these the variance will tend to be much less than in the MTT's. I'm a big advocate of using SNG's to be the steady BR feeder games and go for the big "pops" in the MTT's (nice 4th in the .25 ($100 added) the other night BTW I had one in that back in March,almost 900 more peeps and I only got $6 more than you for yours,lol Love that tourney).

The way I see it is that if you can consistently beat an SNG or 2 (or more,why not?) then the money that you win there will fund your MTT excursions and you can focus on deep runs in those,which is precisely what your focus in an MTT SHOULD be. That's not to say to chuck a min-cash if the cards never came and you can limp in for your money back,plus a little,but going in you always should be looking to go big in MTT's. But if you sit in MTT's comfortable in the knowledge that you essentially "freerolled" in on the money you took off peeps in your "bank" games then it becomes all that much easier. Proper mental outlook being a huge factor,IMO.

Take your time looking around at what games are available in the buy-in range that you're looking to play,see if there are some that fit your strengths as a player. Remember at the mini-micro levels there are a lot of bad players,don't try to beat them by playing their game,make them try to beat you at playing yours. YOU have the advantage,don't give it away.

Got any questions feel free to hit me up on a PM at anytime.

Good luck and kick ass.
Hey Moxie, this is a great post! I like that bit about having a standard of finding something you feel you can consistently play and profit from. I've been in my poker hide-away pondering and trying out stuff for size ... will post my thoughts at a later date, but it looks like great advice - thx so much!!!
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 10:14 PM
(#20)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Both mistakes in hand imo

the 55 hand is a shove pre, just shove in spots like that give 10-17bb stack....

And the A8 suit is definantly a raise on the button 3x is fine, with standard c bet on the flop..........reevaluate on later streets.........calling on the button i think is bad

goodluck

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 10:15 PM.. Reason: spel
 

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