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Overplayed 2nd+3rd pair? (90 player 0.25$ SnG)

Overplayed 2nd+3rd pair? (90 player 0.25$ SnG) - Sun Jul 10, 2011, 04:12 PM
Horrible68's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 16
I was up against two very loose players and decided to fire all streets to get value for aces or good middle pairs. Should I have slowed down?

Sun Jul 10, 2011, 05:05 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
with 2 opponents calling a pot-sized bet, that would be a big scare for me. You need to guess that at least one has Ax and if they hit their second pair (if they didn't have AQ to start with), then you're in deep trouble. When both call your turn bet, then you should know that you're probably beat.

If it was me, I'd have checked the turn and see what happened on the river and have been ready to fold to a push.
Sun Jul 10, 2011, 05:25 PM
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Before US players got the boot the .25 45 and 90 man's were my bread and butter (we get back on they will be for a while longer to).

You are going to see a TON of A-ragging in these,like to the tune of 90% of the players will play Ax for a cheap flop every time. If it's 9 or better they'll likely raise and AK/AQ get open shoved a lot. From any position.

It wouldn't have necessarily changed the outcome here (as with the amount of fish in these,especially in the early stages,getting ANY piece of a hand will probably elicit a call) but you would be amazed at how often you will get called donk-shoving your entire stack when you flopped the the 2 pair here will get called. I can almost guarantee the A6o hand would have shipped it. That's just something to consider though---that donk-shoving in these can/will be paid off.

That being said I like your 3x bet on the flop. The fact that they both called would tell me that I'm ahead at that point as they'll usually let you know when they have it in these games. I would definitely be ranging them for hands like A-rag with a blank on the rag and QJ/Q10 would be a very likely type of hand here as well (yeah middle pair/mediocre kicker will get called to the river big time in these...).

I wholeheartedly agree with JW here on the turn,if it's me I'm slowing this hand down and hoping to keep the pot small at this point. You bet what you did on the turn here and you've committed yourself to making your stand on this hand,come Hell or high water. Any proper bet here (like 1/2 the pot) and I'm basically committing myself to this hand. Whereas a check here and I'm thinking the A6 hand would have led out and you can get away from the hand with 21 BB's still intact. That's an easily recoverable position in these .25 games.

I would note this guy (really if you plan on plying your trade in these for a period of time you should be taking a ton of notes to begin with,you WILL see a lot of the same peeps over and over) and try to discern if this was a good discipline play to let you bet it off to him,or if he's just a calling station.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Sun Jul 10, 2011 at 05:30 PM..
Sun Jul 10, 2011, 06:13 PM
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
When you get a free flop form the BB with Q7o, and when you spike bottom 2 pair, I LIKE your full pot bet on the flop. Bottom 2 is a "wierd" hand to play, because it is a hand which is quite likely to be best on most flops, but it is also highly vulnerable to kicker draws, and board pairing (because board pairs tend to counterfeit bottom 2 so often).

As such, it is a hand that simply CANNOT be "slow played", and must be bet pretty hard...

Your flop bet does that, but I'll offer you an even "stronger" potential play...

Try for the CHECK/RAISE.

Obviously, the more potential for good straight of flush draws there are, the less likly you would be to do this.

The less aggressive your opponents are, the less likely this is best too.

Also the SMALLER the highest card on the flop is, the less likely youd be to try this...but look at THIS flop...

As the Pip-ster notes, there are a ton of Ax players in these events.
A lot of those guys will bet their rag Ace, or bluff if they have position without one.
That means the presence of the A really increases by a lot the chance someone will bet behind you.

You will also see no real draw possibilities on this board. Straight and flush draws are really absent.
This means even if it CHECKS THRU when you try for the check/raise, there really isn't a whole lot that is catching up to you on the turn...see?

The check raise, if you CAN get it, works admirably for what the Pip-ster has noted in terms of "donk-shoving"...it gets you the extra value you want, without the same "risks" of donk shoving (running into a checked set). This is because it launches MORE than the 150 the flop pot tends to "limit" you too, but still AVOIDS taking your 60BB stack past a committment point...see?

If you make a strong move (your pot size bet is definately that too) of any kind, ANY caller must make you back off a bit. 2 callers only increases that thought.
On this I'm 100% in agreement with JWK and Pip, because your hand in the face of callers has a LOT of "calling value", but your one "bullet" was about the extent of your betting/raising value.

So barrelling as you did the first time is good...continuing to do it really isn;t that good.
Mon Jul 25, 2011, 05:35 PM
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Hmm donk betting that flop is pretty marginal........i think i elect for a c/raise there a ton tho instead.......and yeah barrelling 4th n 5th seems standard.....

unlucky i guess

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