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Micro NL: 63o in SB Flops the Nuts, Did I Get Enough or Could I Have Gotten It All?

 
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Micro NL: 63o in SB Flops the Nuts, Did I Get Enough or Could I Have Gotten It All? - Wed Jul 13, 2011, 11:34 AM
(#1)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
First off, this hand doesn't come from Stars; it comes from a local online cardroom that's a bit of a berry patch (ergo why I'm playing there at the moment). It's a 4NL table, and I'm in the small blind vs. an unknown on the button and a regular who is in the big blind. The table is very loose, my effective stack with the BB is fairly deep, and I'm in a gambling mood, so I decide that my implied odds for playing 63o are just fine. The regular may play a lot, but he/she isn't necessarily good. The guy likes to minbet almost every hand and every street with varying hand strengths, but his actions in this hand tell me that he does indeed have something. I end up flopping the *****rbutters (<--- OMG lol at this word being censored), and I get paid off nicely. My questions: could I have played any better? How and why, or why not? What should I have done to plan for less fortuate turns and rivers (e.g. board pairs, flush completion)?

Thanks for your input, guys. I've done what I can to make this look neat, for your viewing pleasure. Enjoy.


Last edited by PanickyPoker; Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 11:38 AM..
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 12:10 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
unless they have A3 or a set..... I think you got about as much as you could out of it. Like the $2 bet on the river, as it's enough for value, but doesn't give them the extra to fold... that an all-in would.

If the board pairs or completes the flush, there isn't much you can do. If you push more earlier, they could easily fold... then you get no value from it.
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 02:34 PM
(#3)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
I agree with JW on the $2 river bet,think that was just about the perfect size.

The play you made here that I like the most however is the re-pop on their re-raise on the turn. I like this move because if they are on a flush draw you want to build the pot NOW,not on the river card because if a scare card does come you'll be in slow the hand down mode most times at that point,and if it's complete air for them you won't get them to put much more in at that point. Plus the bigger the pot going into the river the bigger your value bet can be. (I know YOU know all this,more for any less accomplished peeps really.)

Not sweating any pairing of the board myself here,given your description of his/her betting patterns I would be expecting them to raise pre-flop with a hand like any 22-99 pair,and certainly to be raising if they had a set off the flop.Having the 9 give them a two pair hand with 9 and one of the other cards? Meh I guess that COULD be a consideration,but you marked them as more a min-raiser than a calling station so not sure they would come along on your flop bet with a hand like 92,94 or 95. Can't give that possible holding much credence IMO. Two pair off the flop (54,52,etc. type hands) and I think they re-pop you right then and there. I'm thinking they got a piece on the flop and upgraded to a flush draw on the turn myself. A2,A4 and A5 are also big possibilities IMO.

So given all that I really like the turn re-pop by you a lot. River was fine as well. Really think you maxed this hand out.

Now if you tell me that the site you play on lists players hometowns and theirs looks like a symbol on the Periodic Table of Elements then I'm telling you that you should have just shipped it. They'll call...

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Wed Jul 13, 2011 at 02:36 PM..
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 02:54 PM
(#4)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
With a larger 3 bet on the turn you could have gotten your last .83 in the pot, somewhere in the range of $1.16-$1.44 would have left you with a pot sized bet for the river. Min raising the turn didn't quite set up as big a pot as you wanted.
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 03:18 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
You are 83c shy of a complete double thru.

You could have massaged that into the pot SOMEWHERE.

All I can suggest is that your nut flop, without any strong draws being there, means if you are going to take the lead as you did just add about 30c to flop bet, 30c to turn bet, and 23c to river bet.

As soon as you see that flop, you should be thinking of ways to get 'em all in there.

Because of the limped pot though, adding 30c on the flop bet may get a fold.
When he 3Bets you on the turn, you probably CAN get 45c to 60c more in than you did, especially since you do not see this guy as "disciplined", and you sense he has "enough" to get married"...

That then makes the river "easy" to get paid for the last remaining 23c for a full double.
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 03:51 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The reason I didn't 4bet more on the turn was because I wanted to guarantee a call from any two cards. I still don't know what the villain had, but I think that his hand could have been as weak as an unpaired OESD. If I knew that he had a set, I'd be less cautious of enticing a fold, but I was setting up the river bet to be big, but not a shove. I think that the turn would probably be the best spot to get more money (setting up a shove), and possibly betting a bit bigger on the flop would help, too (not necessarily overbetting, though), but it's tricky. Bet sizing is a subtle art. I basically left 20BB on the table, and adding 20BB to my winrate would be a sick increase that would yield boatloads of cash long-term. I think I made a mistake in this hand that's a lot bigger than it looks.
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 03:59 PM
(#7)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
not to hijack this, but where did your blog go PP? I enjoyed reading it
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 04:02 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I haven't been updating it lately. It'll go back up if I start reposting.
 
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Wed Jul 13, 2011, 09:05 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The reason I didn't 4bet more on the turn was because I wanted to guarantee a call from any two cards. I still don't know what the villain had, but I think that his hand could have been as weak as an unpaired OESD. If I knew that he had a set, I'd be less cautious of enticing a fold, but I was setting up the river bet to be big, but not a shove. I think that the turn would probably be the best spot to get more money (setting up a shove), and possibly betting a bit bigger on the flop would help, too (not necessarily overbetting, though), but it's tricky. Bet sizing is a subtle art. I basically left 20BB on the table, and adding 20BB to my winrate would be a sick increase that would yield boatloads of cash long-term. I think I made a mistake in this hand that's a lot bigger than it looks.
Yeah...probably.

Pre-flop, you have a hand YOU can tend to play, imply because of your PF discipline. Adding in the fact you have some pretty ABC players, and nicely deep money, spec'ing god net you a big pot. You simply cannot raise though, or you'll be denying yourself a lot of the +eV nature of trying these "shots".

On the flop, the pre-flop action sorta "locks" you into a certain bet size.
Even the most EXTREME CS players are pretty loathe to call much over a pot bet on a really weak draw.

"Typical" is a half pot bet.
"Charge the CS" bet would be around 2/3rds to full pot.

Anything above that and you are simply gunna run everyone out more foten than not, and loe value for your nut flop.
That means 6c to 12c is about your MAX you can get in here, and you led for 9c.

Your 9c MAYBE "lost" you a 2nd caller, but with only 97c behind I doubt Libe has/had enough to call anyway.
Check/calling here is no guarentee you'll get any more in the long run, as your call oop will tend to clue in an over pair on a lot of turn cards, and potentially COST you value.

So looks like you got right around the MAX on this street, without running the risk of losing both customers.

(This street is why I "re-thought" my answer)

Turn is really pretty blank (although it does throw a flush DRAW up there).
You launch a "big" bet in there of 24c (80% pot).
Villain min raises you, making it 48c.
You then essentially min raise HIM, making it 52c more, $1 to go total.

Yeah...this is the spot you "lost" most of your value I think.

If you thought Villain had "enough" in his hand that he'd call a 52c 4bet, you think he might call an 82c or 92c 4bet?
Had you done that, you ahve an extra $1 in that pot, and launching $1.80 into a $3.30 pot becomes almost a SNAP CALL.
(because he has to call $1.80 to "win" $5.10, you do NOT call a 4bet then fold getting 2.88 to 1 on the river!)

So my first "fast" impression looks solid still...
A bit more bet on the turn sets you up to get the full double up.
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 06:55 AM
(#10)
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
Hey Panicky,

I would strongly advise folding such hands preflop 100% of the time because they have a horrible playability, huge reverse implied odds and you will be in the worst oop spot throughout the whole hand against two opponents.

On the turn I would raise way more since turn raises by your opponents will most likely be a strong hand anyway. His calling range will most likely be inelastic towards betsizing, so the more the better and you will set up the pot nicely for a river value shove towards which he will feel much more committed when the pot is bigger by then.

Hope that helped!

Felix
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 10:14 AM
(#11)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Thanks for the advice, Felix. Perhaps I'm too optimistic about my chances of making hands from the SB. I should mention that at this site, there is an auto-minbet advance action button that a lot of players actually love to use, so post-flop, I'm frequently only facing a minbet when I'm on a draw, and it wasn't typical to see value bets above 2.5BB at this table before the river, even in much bigger pots.

I thought that the unlikelihood that I'd face any big bets postflop decreased my reverse implied odds, which factored in to my decision to play the hand. It makes sense that I should be basing my play on a stronger foundation of hands, though. I was leaning away from playing Ax and unsuited broadways, and more towards low cards with connectivity because I think they play better at very loose tables, but 63o barely has connectivity to start.

I'll be less timid with my 3bets in future.
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 03:58 PM
(#12)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
lol well you had a cheap price to pay to c a flop pre so bleh i guess its ok, generally though i fold all these low rank holdings OOP and just move on, value is most extracted in position remember that.........

Wow and concerning the value you could have got, you pretty much got it all so good job ............But in my opinion you played the hand terribly, against a good player 3 betting the turn is just almost illustrating you hand, just a miracle that he had something maybe 2 pair or whatever.........man and donk betting lol sighhhh........, you have got to stop that habit its super fishy....... there are times to donk bet and i think this is not one of them when you flop the absolute nuts, you potentially dry up value from those in position who are willing to stab or those who will eventually catch a help card on the turn ect.........

so tell me by 3 betting the turn then donk potting the river, what do you expect to get value from? A3? really whats the range of hands your opponent could possibly have to pay off your perceived range which is obviously super strong...........this would never work higher than 50 NL garanteed lol

but i guess in this situation it dosn't matter seeming that the fish you were playing is terrible and pretty much payed you off

nice job
 

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