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Extracting more

 
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Extracting more - Thu Jul 14, 2011, 01:11 PM
(#1)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
PokerStars Game #64554098205: Tournament #414631652, $3.16+$0.34 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2011/07/14 14:27:02 NT [2011/07/14 12:57:02 ET]
Table '414631652 1' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: aakkasakkaiu (2935 in chips)
Seat 2: hSisqo (1430 in chips)
Seat 4: the_eagle23 (2135 in chips)
Seat 5: kanut0 (1460 in chips)
Seat 6: Minas9 (1440 in chips)
Seat 7: billyfil (1405 in chips)
Seat 8: bugor78 (1230 in chips)
Seat 9: moynavas10 (1465 in chips)
hSisqo: posts small blind 15
the_eagle23: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_eagle23 [9d 7d]
kanut0: raises 60 to 90
Minas9: folds
billyfil: calls 90
bugor78: folds
moynavas10: folds
aakkasakkaiu: folds
hSisqo: folds
the_eagle23: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [Jd 3d 8h]
the_eagle23: checks
kanut0: bets 100
billyfil: calls 100
the_eagle23: calls 100
*** TURN *** [Jd 3d 8h] [2d]
the_eagle23: checks
kanut0: checks
billyfil: bets 240
the_eagle23: raises 270 to 510
kanut0: folds
billyfil: folds
Uncalled bet (270) returned to the_eagle23
the_eagle23 collected 1065 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1065 | Rake 0
Board [Jd 3d 8h 2d]
Seat 1: aakkasakkaiu (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: hSisqo (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: the_eagle23 (big blind) collected (1065)
Seat 5: kanut0 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: Minas9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: billyfil folded on the Turn
Seat 8: bugor78 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: moynavas10 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

My question is how could i have gotten more in the pot, My first thought was to make a raise on the flop, but i decided not too because i would probably be in quite a pickle if i missed so i called. And so the diamond came and made my flush ( Hmm, that raise looks pretty good about now) I wasn't sure to bet or check now, i figure a bet would be too obvious that i made my flush (But then again, would they fold top pair with a good kicker, or even two pair? I figured he didn't have much because of his small bet, and the other guys call didnt seem to strong) So i checked. Turns out the caller bet. ( Did he make his draw or is he trying to take the pot?) i was going to call but i was out of position and i thought my best bet was to raise) So i raised, and it took down the pot. So what do you guyz think?
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:07 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
On the flop:

Calling is fine. The arguement for calling is that you have a decently strong draw (12 outs, 0 to the nuts), but not strong enough to get it in without any deep thought (that would be 14 outs, all to the nuts). Moreover, if you raise, you might chase out players who might pay you off later. This is where reads are important. If either or both of the other players involved are aggressive enough to pay you off sizably if you hit, then calling is great. If they're passive or skilled at getting away from second-best hands, then you might want to take the lead now with a checkraise.

On the turn:

This is a spot where people frequently bet or raise to protect their flush. You're in an interesting spot though, since like I mentioned above, your draw was not to the nuts. The player who checked might have turned the nut flush and be going for a checkraise; the player now taking up the betting lead is doing so on a 3flush board, which could also indicate a better flush. I think that there is a strong arguement for only calling the turn, because what will you do if you are called or raised and no diamond falls on the river?

I don't think that you played badly, however I do think that your turn 3bet turned your hand face-up, and you were only likely to get action from stubborn bad players or better flushes. I think that calling the turn and calling most rivers would have been safer, and to answer your question, it might actually yield more money long-term.
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:19 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
honestly, you were lucky to win it (and yes, you did flop the flush). With 4 diamonds on the board and you only having the 9, there are alot of cards that someone would enter a pot with, especially early, that you'd lose to.

I'd have raised on the flop (might have ended it right there, but in the long run, will save you alot of chips). By just calling the flop, you're giving anyone with the A, K, Q, 10 of diamonds a very cheap draw to beat you... and another small diamond hits on the turn. Your raise on the turn, if called or re-raised, there is about a 99% chance you won't win the hand and will have to muck.

You'll be better off if you make that type of raise on the flop, since your hold cards were only 9 high..... especially early to a board that people will stay with anything (let alone someone playing 2 broadway cards with a diamond).

My guess is that your opponent had a better flush than you, but mucked to your raise, guessing you had the A of diamonds.
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:20 PM
(#4)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
On the flop:

Calling is fine. The arguement for calling is that you have a decently strong draw (12 outs, 0 to the nuts), but not strong enough to get it in without any deep thought (that would be 14 outs, all to the nuts). Moreover, if you raise, you might chase out players who might pay you off later. This is where reads are important. If either or both of the other players involved are aggressive enough to pay you off sizably if you hit, then calling is great. If they're passive or skilled at getting away from second-best hands, then you might want to take the lead now with a checkraise.

On the turn:

This is a spot where people frequently bet or raise to protect their flush. You're in an interesting spot though, since like I mentioned above, your draw was not to the nuts. The player who checked might have turned the nut flush and be going for a checkraise; the player now taking up the betting lead is doing so on a 3flush board, which could also indicate a better flush. I think that there is a strong arguement for only calling the turn, because what will you do if you are called or raised and no diamond falls on the river?

I don't think that you played badly, however I do think that your turn 3bet turned your hand face-up, and you were only likely to get action from stubborn bad players or better flushes. I think that calling the turn and calling most rivers would have been safer, and to answer your question, it might actually yield more money long-term.
Agreed, my first thought was to raise after i checked along with my flush draw i did have a gut shot. I see now i should have raised.

I tottally agree with you on the turn, But i was fairly confident i had the best hand ( I see now i was wrong to think that) Oh well, learn from your mistakes is what they say. Thanks Panicky
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:22 PM
(#5)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
honestly, you were lucky to win it (and yes, you did flop the flush). With 4 diamonds on the board and you only having the 9, there are alot of cards that someone would enter a pot with, especially early, that you'd lose to.

I'd have raised on the flop (might have ended it right there, but in the long run, will save you alot of chips). By just calling the flop, you're giving anyone with the A, K, Q, 10 of diamonds a very cheap draw to beat you... and another small diamond hits on the turn. Your raise on the turn, if called or re-raised, there is about a 99% chance you won't win the hand and will have to muck.

You'll be better off if you make that type of raise on the flop, since your hold cards were only 9 high..... especially early to a board that people will stay with anything (let alone someone playing 2 broadway cards with a diamond).

My guess is that your opponent had a better flush than you, but mucked to your raise, guessing you had the A of diamonds.
I think you read that wrong JWK there were just 3 diamonds on the board
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:29 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_eagle23 View Post
I think you read that wrong JWK there were just 3 diamonds on the board
You're right.. .it was only 3 diamonds. With that, like the turn raise, so you don't let them draw cheap. If you check and the 4th one hits, you're in deep trouble.
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:31 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_eagle23 View Post
i was fairly confident i had the best hand ( I see now i was wrong to think that)
I think you have the best hand on the turn way over 50% of the time. The problem is that when you don't have the best hand, and you raise the turn, you almost always have the worst hand when you are 4bet, and it's very easy to convince yourself to stack off in that kind of spot. And since you're usually getting folds from worse hands, the only purpose betting really has is to protect your hand from a fourth diamond or a board pair on the river, which I don't think is worth it here. Calling the turn gives your hand deception value, which might entice your opponent to bet their worse hands aggressively on the river, since you could still be drawing when you call the turn.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Thu Jul 14, 2011 at 02:33 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:38 PM
(#8)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post

I think that calling the turn and calling most rivers would have been safer.
OK, but calling the turn COULD be a bad play because what if the diamond does come? maybe he doesn't have a diamond or has a really low one but if the diamond does come he could easily beat me, i think raising and taking down the pot there was what I THINK a better play.
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:39 PM
(#9)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
You're right.. .it was only 3 diamonds. With that, like the turn raise, so you don't let them draw cheap. If you check and the 4th one hits, you're in deep trouble.
I just realized my earlier post was pretty much what JWK said lol sorry
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:43 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
If you choose to call the turn, then you re-evaluate on bad rivers. If you raise, you raise/fold and lean towards folding the river if you're only called. Player's choice.
 
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Thu Jul 14, 2011, 02:49 PM
(#11)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Ya ok, i see what you're saying
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 09:10 AM
(#12)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
IMO check raising the flop is best given your equity.........

I do think check raising the turn is bad against good players but in this crapshoot i guess its O K, bt ur pretty much illustrating your hand to everyone and drying up value from worse that may even fire a river value bet, i.e 2 pairs sets top pairs ect
 

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