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KK in PSO early on

 
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KK in PSO early on - Fri Jul 15, 2011, 01:29 AM
(#1)
elron66's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 15


I really don't think there's any way I could have played this differently, other than folding KK pre-flop. NoProblem had been playing very loose, so I had little reason to put him on AA. I raised pre-flop, and re-raised his raise All-in.

Obviously, in poker you can't always look at results ... even playing a hand right will result in a loss. But let's be clear, results are what matter in PSO, not how well I play. It doesn't matter if I play the hand right or not, if I lose, then I lose points.

Is PSO truly trying to teach people to fold a KK pre-flop? That's the only way I can see that I don';t go broke on the hand. Now, in a normal MTT, I simply move on and chalk it up to bad luck ... but in PSO, I am penalized in points for the bad luck, while the other player is rewarded for what amounts to an absolutely horrendous call.

So how should I play this differently ... is PSO really trying to teach me to fold KK in that situation? Or should I jut accept that there are times PSO will penalize good play and reward bad play?
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 01:49 AM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elron66 View Post

So how should I play this differently ... is PSO really trying to teach me to fold KK in that situation? Or should I jut accept that there are times PSO will penalize good play and reward bad play?
SO WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY " TIMES WHEN PSO WILL PENALIZE GOOD PLAY AND REWARD BAD PLAY ? "
IF YOU DIDN'T ALREADY KNOW KINGS ARE NOT 100% EVER
EVEN WITHOUT AA

 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 01:54 AM
(#3)
elron66's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 15
Ofc I know its not 100% ... neither is 55. But which one of us played the hand the worst, and which one got rewarded?

What I mean is simple ... calling an all-in with 55 at that blind level in PSO is a bad play, period, and yet he gets rewarded with points for it.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 01:57 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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(Preface: I am not saying you did anything "wrong" here, I'm just answering your question)

How about not jamming in 60bb pre-flop?

Over 2 limpers, yeah you raise. When he 3Bets, you can even 4Bet, but at least leave yourself some room to get away...

If this were a normal MTT, I'd say your jam is pretty "value owning", since there is very little that can call you and PAY YOU that bet...you want to get paid with KK, right? 'Course if you know the viallian is a rare donkey Lagtard, then your bet makes a whole lot more "sense". But the effect of getting this kind of mistake (that you want) from an opponent is that if he is going to suck out by the river, being all in pre guarentees that will knock you out.

When playing a cumulative score league, a lot of what you want to do is minimize your risk. You cannot go all out if you are not all in.

Granted, with KK there is very little risk pre-flop, and a lot more if you let it go to a flop, but when all your scores matter do you really want to be courting a lot of deep stack all-in's?

Remember, the league is about conserving chips and ladder climbing a lot more than risking a suck out, so the scoring system says those kinds of all-in's WILL be more "harmful" than in a a normal MTT if the lagtard spikes. If you are at the 50/100 level ad have 18BB, sure...go for this hand exactly how you played it. But is it really necessary to get 'em all in pre-flop at this blind level?

Blaming the league is like blaming a home game "rule" that says you may not check-raise for oyur losses...

If you decide to take part in that game with its wierd rule, then it is incumbent upon YOU to make the necessary adjustments.

And a big adjustment for PSO league play is do what you can to avoid all-in's on deep stacks.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 02:01 AM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 02:34 AM
(#5)
elron66's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 15
I appreciate the advice. It seems, in the end, that you are suggesting in PSO that I should fold the best hand rather than "risk my stack." I understand thats how the point system works, but again, while it may be good advice for PSO, it seems to be bad advice for poker in general.

I also understand about different blind levels as well, but again, when he raises my re-raise to $900, my ONLY choices there are fold the best hand, or go all-in. Folding the best hand seems to be bad poker advice in general, regardless of the blind level.

The frustrating thing, to me, is that he is rewarded for what was a REALLY bad call, while I am penalized for not being willing to fold the best hand. That may well be how PSO works, but if the point of PSO is to teach goo poker skills, then how does encouraging people to fold the best hand teach "good poker skills?"
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 04:24 AM
(#6)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elron66 View Post
I appreciate the advice. It seems, in the end, that you are suggesting in PSO that I should fold the best hand rather than "risk my stack." I understand thats how the point system works, but again, while it may be good advice for PSO, it seems to be bad advice for poker in general.

I also understand about different blind levels as well, but again, when he raises my re-raise to $900, my ONLY choices there are fold the best hand, or go all-in. Folding the best hand seems to be bad poker advice in general, regardless of the blind level.

The frustrating thing, to me, is that he is rewarded for what was a REALLY bad call, while I am penalized for not being willing to fold the best hand. That may well be how PSO works, but if the point of PSO is to teach goo poker skills, then how does encouraging people to fold the best hand teach "good poker skills?"

how unfair it may seem along the way i shall tell u i've allready folded QQ and KK just because i feld it was gonna be a multyway shove fest and in the end i was right. seeing the most strange card combinations hit the green and a board wich was everything except my winning combi.
just play carefull and indeed fold if u seem eye to eye with a full moron
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 05:45 AM
(#7)
mcgameboy's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 119
Well in my last PSO Open League I had a similar situation that had "an undesirable ending".

I get AA in the SB. UTG raises to 300 on 25/50 blinds. Another player (UTG+2) shoves. Folded round to me. I have about 1400 chips, very slightly less than the player who shoved. And it is fairly early on (about 45% of the field has already gone though). I know if I call and lose..its definite negative points.

But can i really fold this hand and hope that I get a chance to free flop the nuts with a SB or BB special later on? I wouldnt have thought so! If I call and win the hand and double up then I can go card dead the rest of the tourny and still make easy positive points. If the guy who raised UTG also decides to get involved then I can triple up and make even better positive points. So I called. It's just too good a spot to pass up. If you are gonna fold AA preflop in open league for fear of being donked/outdrawn then why bloody play at all? I have the preflop nuts and a chance to double up if not triple up.

The player who raised UTG did call and he had 99. The player who shoved (a member of the Spanish school I may add) turns over...QJoff. A tad optimistic on the Spaniard's part but hey ho he must know he's gonna suck out because he has been reasonably tight up to this point. Well anyways...I had this bad feeling that if I was going to lose it was going to be to the idiot who shoved with QJ because he got his whole stack in first. K on flop. A on turn. T on river. My fears confirmed. I turned trips but the donk shover rivers broadway. I am out and the player who decided to get jiggy with connected paint for nearly 30BBs gets rewarded with a 4500 pot. When I saw how many negative points I got and how many positive points the guy who busted me got...it was a 47 point difference (minus 13 for me, plus 34 for him). And he didnt even finish inside the top 6.25%.. It wouldnt have mattered if this was Hand 1 or if there were 10 players left. Theres no way I am folding AA there. I will take being in that spot all day long because more often than not I am tripling up instead of hitting the rail. But yes...it sucks that I get punished for doing nothing wrong (how can calling with the preflop nuts be wrong?) while a donk gets rewarded for a terrible (or maybe I should say very badly timed) move/play. It also annoys me that if the donk player had folded his QJ preflop (which he should have done) I was going to 3 bet shove over the 99 player and double up through him. Such is life in PSO Open League. Bad beats happen )
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 06:00 AM
(#8)
Da Sens Fan's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,118
Very crappy spot to be in for a pso tourny

I personally make pso decisions like this based on points risk/reward.

Early in the month or when my current score is still fairly low I will play it like I would in a normal tournament.

Later on when my score is getting high and early exits are disgusting point losses, I attempt to small-ball it, and probably bail to shove monkey fest. It makes you feel sick to the stomach doing it, knowing you are ahead and that it is a terrible "poker" decision. I'd rather fold and stall to near break even points and take a tiny negative hit than risk a big -30 or worse hit so early.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 06:32 AM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by elron66 View Post
I appreciate the advice. It seems, in the end, that you are suggesting in PSO that I should fold the best hand rather than "risk my stack." I understand thats how the point system works, but again, while it may be good advice for PSO, it seems to be bad advice for poker in general.

I also understand about different blind levels as well, but again, when he raises my re-raise to $900, my ONLY choices there are fold the best hand, or go all-in. Folding the best hand seems to be bad poker advice in general, regardless of the blind level.

The frustrating thing, to me, is that he is rewarded for what was a REALLY bad call, while I am penalized for not being willing to fold the best hand. That may well be how PSO works, but if the point of PSO is to teach goo poker skills, then how does encouraging people to fold the best hand teach "good poker skills?"
No, that isnt what I am suggesting at all...

What I AM suggesting is pretty simple:

Your raised to 120
He re-raises to 210
Why not flat, and leave yourself room to muck?

A "value owning" bet/raise is one which will likely result in only a BETTER hand calling, or a worse hand folding. Either way, you get "owned", either because you lose the call, or you get it but are behind.

Now for the PSO league, giving ANY chance to be run down is not necessarily optimal in deep money situations. Simply put, the 1800 in chips you had will run you FAR deeper than the 15/30 blind level. Because your scores are cumulative, your FIRST PRORITY should be to minimize point loss. By being all in at the 15/30 blind level, even as an 80% favorite, you are not really doing that.

By seeking to get all in pre-flop, you are setting yourself up to LOSE 1 time in 5. As I stated, there is nothing wrong with doing that per se, the 4 tiems you survive, you may get to the "big" plus points level, and off-set the big points hit you took here. But i you are going to WHINE about hands like this...play the league more passively and AVOID deep stack all -ins. That is a valid adjustment you can make.

If you do not wish to do that, then play more tournies. When you get sucked out on in these situations, you will off-set them to a far greater degree than you would if you played fewer events.

The point of all this is simply this:

YOU make your decisions
YOU must live with the consequences

The league is what it is: it is not PSO's fault you lost points. That is poker.
There is no "evil spirit of PSO" which "penalized" you for not folding the best hand; what there was, is YOUR unwillingness to play less than "shove em in" poker when losing would mean a big score loss for you in the league.

Please understand, I would have willingly done EXACTLY what you did, PSO or not. If that Donk wants to 5Bet 55 into my KK, god bless his little heart! I'll be willing to play for stacks in that spot ANY DAY OF THE WEEK!

The big difference is if/when I lose, and I WILL lose about 1 time in 5, I am not going to go into a forum looking for sympathy, nor am I going to fail to recognize that it was MY decision to play for stacks pre-flop that caused me to be in a position to LOSE my stack. There is NO 100% lock situation pre-flop in hold 'em, but there ARE potential 100% lock situations post flop. If you wanna get sucked out on less when the points loss is big...try playing some post flop poker...

I'm just saying.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 06:36 AM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 07:19 AM
(#10)
Henry Minute's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 48
I pretty much agree with you.

There is little 'skill' involved in the Skill League except, as you say, the skill of folding monsters.

If you don't get lucky early on the games become pretty soul destroying and have little or nothing to do with poker skills. They are exercises in survival and that is all.

I haven't the inclination to try it out but I'm pretty certain that entering and sitting out would get me higher in the league than I am now and I've finished in the money on one occasion.

The punishments for early failure are too great and the sitter outers should be excluded after one level.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 07:29 AM
(#11)
Henry Minute's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 48
You make good points.

However, when I saw that there was a "Poker Skill League" in the PokerSchool Online I hoped/assumed it would foster poker skills that applied in the general run of online poker.

Although after reflection I suppose that in a way it does. It teaches that you must be able to adapt your game.
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 05:29 PM
(#12)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Well played friend and nice job on the bet sizing very good, unlucky result

I have to admit tho people should stop posting their bad beat storys on the hand analysis forum thread its really gay.....

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:30 PM.. Reason: spel
 

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