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The Germans are coming

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The Germans are coming - Fri Jul 15, 2011, 06:07 AM
(#1)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Just had a look at the leaderboard this morning and surprise, surprise five of the top 10 places are occupied by German players.

Well, it is not such a surprise to me and being based in Germany, I have come across most of these players in freeroll formats, so I believe I have good insights to their style of play and how best to counteract it. Off course, it is not just about competing against these players in the tournaments themselves, but for those in the top 100, it should also be about consistently outperforming these players from a points perspective in each tourney and overall.

I would like to share my thoughts and observations in the forum but would like to get clearance first from the mods/staff/admin that I am not breaking any rules by doing so.

I hope to be able to update this post later once the position is clarifed.

Cheers,

TC
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 07:32 AM
(#2)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
I can't wait.

Having read numerous posts from you this month whilst sitting here in open mouthed amazement I've been a good boy and resisted the urge to get involved. But this promises to be too good to miss
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 08:00 AM
(#3)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
My 1st. thought was to hide in the attic..........hiccup
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 08:15 AM
(#4)
De Hitman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by effsea View Post
My 1st. thought was to hide in the attic..........hiccup
I didn't no you was French Effsea
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 08:31 AM
(#5)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Just had a look at the leaderboard this morning and surprise, surprise five of the top 10 places are occupied by German players.

Well, it is not such a surprise to me and being based in Germany, I have come across most of these players in freeroll formats, so I believe I have good insights to their style of play and how best to counteract it. Off course, it is not just about competing against these players in the tournaments themselves, but for those in the top 100, it should also be about consistently outperforming these players from a points perspective in each tourney and overall.

I would like to share my thoughts and observations in the forum but would like to get clearance first from the mods/staff/admin that I am not breaking any rules by doing so.

I hope to be able to update this post later once the position is clarifed.

Cheers,

TC
Spill the beans TOP
As long as it's only info and you are not being abusive about specific players there is no rule breaking
As long as you don't name players I don't see it as a problem imo
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:38 AM
(#6)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by effsea View Post
My 1st. thought was to hide in the attic..........hiccup
lol...
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Hitman View Post
I didn't no you was French Effsea
...lol'ing harder...


And it should be fine top.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:08 AM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I can't wait.

Having read numerous posts from you this month whilst sitting here in open mouthed amazement I've been a good boy and resisted the urge to get involved. But this promises to be too good to miss
I am surprised I could leave you speechless, Darkman I have put forward my opinions, which I am convinced are correct and if you are going to shot there is no point hitting the wall, and I still have plenty of ammo left... so don't resist the urge...

I actually have played against all the German players in the top 10 so I think my observations may have some value; each can draw their own conclusions.

It would be wrong to make a generalisation and say that the following is true of all German poker players but they do play an aggressive style combined with a lot of common sense and much more than a modicum of skill. They can switch and interchange styles as quickly as the dynamic of the table or hand changes and they often play the player and not the cards in many situations, their reading and ranging of opponents and ability to sense when they are ahead is their greatest asset.

At first glance, you can identify them as either TAG or LAG, but there are so many flavours of both styles that that is a dangerous classification to make, which is made more difficult as many of them display the attributes of being a bit call station like as well.

The "true" TAGs amongst them are not risk adverse, they are not nitty in any sense, and are prepared to play for stacks early on in the tournament to accrue chips. As well as premium hands, broadway, paint, connectors, suited connectors are all fair game in position, so they can be pretty loose pre flop and they like multiple callers. I have found that if they connect with a board, they will bet, usually min raise. If the board is wet, say three cards of one suit, this is by far the best time to reraise and get them off their hand even with air. If you simply call, they will smell weakness, although often the check, reraise can be a valuable tool, depending on position.

If a German player continues in a hand, they usually have something, and although they are capable of bluffing themselves, they will rarely fold to a bluff on fourth or fifth street; so any Vanessa (some player that girl) moves are likely to end in significant chip losses against them. It is very difficult to blow them off middle or even low pair.

You will often see German players go all in preflop, pocket pairs seem to be the favoured cards in these cases, although with a few players in the pot a shove with Ace and high kicker (K,Q,J) is possible.

From time to time standard operating procedure East of the Rhine is calling the river with an Ace when there is none on the board and sometimes even a King. Beware putting in the brilliant bluff and the German player wanting to continue gambling. My advice is that if you are going to bluff after the river, have a pair, any pair, because it sucks to lose to Ace or King high even if you are a mathematical genius.

The other big recommendation I make is that when you are not involved in the hand to really shadow the German player, to take notes of their play, put yourself in their shoes, and try and work out what hands they are playing. That means that you can tailor your own play, and learn to maximise wins and minimise losses.

There are predictable and mediocre German players as well as good ones and you should target these players as much as possible; many want to play "poker", all you should be interested in is taking their chips. There are just as many German players who play poker with no thought as from any other country. The one thing with Germans though, is that anything they do, they put energy and concentration into it, so the weak player you played last week could have improved ten fold when you meet him today.

Be willing to lay down your decent hand if you think it is beat: it does not seem fair when Aces or Kings are cracked by 7,8 suited but trust me this happens. You do not have to ship your stack to confirm your suspicion as fact.

Keep your preflop percentage low but not so low that you are a nit. Bet your hands aggressively and if you are played back at be willing to reconsider your position.

Do not slow play or under bet premium hands but be willing to judge each situation within each hand as unique. If you make a mistake, do not compound it by making another mistake, later in the hand.

One huge advantage that we have over German players is that although they may seem unpredictable, "ordnung" or order is ground into their DNA. If you run the clock, they might start the old zzzzs but will usually give up after a few hands because they like predictability. What they hate though is when you play slow one hand and then fast the next three, then slow for five. This knocks their whole world view off kelter, they become highly agitated and go on tilt. The same can be applied to bet sizing and betting patterns. They will assume 3X and 4X are premium hands ("ve know he has Aces or Kings"), but if you 8X, now and again, they will think you are bluffing; out of position and they will be even more convinced you are bluffing. It is high risk but you often can take a German out with this play.

I suppose a lot of what I have said can be applied to many different nationalities, but the German desire to compete, improve and win at anything they do is a characteristic that separates them from many other poker players of other nationalities. They rarely give up without a fight, but they are not unbeatable.

Good luck to everyone in their quest to beat the Germans to the top.

TC
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 12:30 PM
(#8)
effsea's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,609
come on,

forget the Germans, it's those dam drunks you have to worry about.....hiccup,

Really, your never going to be able to read them, they don't even know what there doing

Dam, most times l can't remember what cards l'm holding....

cheers
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 12:36 PM
(#9)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
So are these the same Germans that not a week or two ago you were telling us were hopeless unthinking players whose school was encouraging them to shove with rags at every opportunity ?

My experience of their top players to date, and it isn't much, is that they conform to the stereotypical british view of a German. They are calculating, methodical and extremely disciplined individuals who fully understand the system in which they are playing and how to benefit from it. They are playing an uber nitty style and continuing to do so after the bubble has burst. A lot of "our" players (including myself at first) have failed to realise the benefit of this and are continuing to open up their ranges post bubble. This is a big mistake and a lot of points are going to waste as a result.

You will meet them so infrequently that the idea of having a strategy to beat them at the table is a pointless one as far as I'm concerned. Far better to just concentrate on bringing your own game into line with what works better this month.

The only other thing that I'd say about their game is that they most definately are not playing any speculative hands, or anything other than true monsters from early position. I suspect AKs is the minimum requirement from anywhere other than the hijack to the button and even then it's a limp which they will have no hesitation in laying down to a maniac raise.

Worthy opponents. Let's see who prevails.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 02:39 PM
(#10)
KOingDonks's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 322
Germans? Once they see they losing the league war to us westerners they be like Mr Hit looking where the best place is to commit suicide :P
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 02:47 PM
(#11)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
I think you need a compass donk
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 02:50 PM
(#12)
EasyChips4U's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 762
3 words... "Bring it on"
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 02:55 PM
(#13)
De Hitman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 299
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I think you need a compass donk
Or may be a brain transplant
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:00 PM
(#14)
EasyChips4U's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 762
Tomorrow will be the half way point to this Special month. I have all the faith in that my fellow Canucks are just positioning themselves to make moves in the 2nd half, just as I plan to do. I also have confidence that the Brits will be making moves as well. So the Germans better watch out... cuz we're not just gonna let 'em walk in and take over. Not in my backyard, and Not on my watch.

Last edited by EasyChips4U; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 03:06 PM.. Reason: typo
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:01 PM
(#15)
KOingDonks's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by De Hitman View Post
Or may be a brain transplant
Look whos typing the turkey who typed he went under the soviet radar when in fact the germans were involved in that thread hahahahah De Sitman pmslrotfl at that
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:05 PM
(#16)
KOingDonks's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
I think you need a compass donk
Thinking and knowing are 2 different things Dman hihihi no reply please
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:20 PM
(#17)
Chinook146's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 312
OK, grabbing some snacks and a good German beer - this thread is quite interesting and informative ... tell me more, tell me more, tell me more ...

 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:52 PM
(#18)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkman61 View Post
So are these the same Germans that not a week or two ago you were telling us were hopeless unthinking players whose school was encouraging them to shove with rags at every opportunity ?

My experience of their top players to date, and it isn't much, is that they conform to the stereotypical british view of a German. They are calculating, methodical and extremely disciplined individuals who fully understand the system in which they are playing and how to benefit from it. They are playing an uber nitty style and continuing to do so after the bubble has burst. A lot of "our" players (including myself at first) have failed to realise the benefit of this and are continuing to open up their ranges post bubble. This is a big mistake and a lot of points are going to waste as a result.

You will meet them so infrequently that the idea of having a strategy to beat them at the table is a pointless one as far as I'm concerned. Far better to just concentrate on bringing your own game into line with what works better this month.

The only other thing that I'd say about their game is that they most definately are not playing any speculative hands, or anything other than true monsters from early position. I suspect AKs is the minimum requirement from anywhere other than the hijack to the button and even then it's a limp which they will have no hesitation in laying down to a maniac raise.

Worthy opponents. Let's see who prevails.
Well now you are misquoting me Darkman, and taking it out of context. Certainly, in the German freerolls, they are shoving with ACE rag and I even mentioned that in my post here, but it is different when it is not 10,000 other Germans I suppose. And indeed the Pokerstar's fraternity in Germany, including the website and TV show, suggest a much more aggressive game than either you; I or Pokerschool here would recommend. They actually condemn nitty players and eliminated them quickly from the show. Personally if I went all in with my AQ suited and got sucked out by A7 I would feel aggrieved at being eliminated from said show and declared a weak player.

I would agree that they there are those that are uber nitty, but there are also those that play and can play poker, and they happen to be top of the leaderboard. They happen to be those that were successful in the freerolls, coincidentally. You will not see them being over nitty after the bubble if they are short stacked, or not near the points. Usually though, by that stage they have accumulated enough chips to be nitty.

I have not played enough tournaments in this league to give a learned opinion but I would agree that playing a similar style to the old PSO would put people in contention. I am sure others are employing different tactics that could also be successful. As you said, it will be interesting to see who prevails, but I would not put it past the best German players to dominate the leaderboard places come the end of the month. We will see.

Run good,

TC
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 03:53 PM
(#19)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by EasyChips4U View Post
Tomorrow will be the half way point to this Special month. I have all the faith in that my fellow Canucks are just positioning themselves to make moves in the 2nd half, just as I plan to do. I also have confidence that the Brits will be making moves as well. So the Germans better watch out... cuz we're not just gonna let 'em walk in and take over. Not in my backyard, and Not on my watch.
Is that a quote from "A Few Good Men" Easy?

TC
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 04:00 PM
(#20)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Well my tip for the top is kamikatze12. And believe me, from what I've seen of her (I think) so far she makes me look LAG
 

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