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Am i right on this "Pot Odds" thingy?

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Am i right on this "Pot Odds" thingy? - Fri Jul 15, 2011, 08:08 AM
(#1)
strupper101's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 6
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Sorry if this has been asked or the answer is on here somewhere but...is the Pot Odds worked out by the amount of chips in the pot and dividing that by the amount of chips you hold? i.e 1500 in pot to call I would have to put 500 chips in the Pot Odds being 3:1...or am i way out? The reason I ask on the S & G course one example says there is 1950 chips in pot I have 1600 (but once I decide what to do the odds says 2480/1600, where does the difference betwween 1950,in pot, and 2480 when the pot odds are worked out? Confused.com big time.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:46 AM
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!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
You're correct in your first part..the 500 to win 1500 is 3:1.
On the course stuff, can you tell us which portion you're looking at, and what page of that phase. Then we can look at it and try to help.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 10:53 AM
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strupper101's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 6
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S & G Middle phase Pot odds decision

The blinds are 50/100, you have 2,000 chips, and are on the button. Everyone folds and you have - a category 5 hand. You raise to 400. The big blind has a stack of 3,000 and raises to 1,500. Your pot odds are 1950:1100, or slightly worse than 2:1. However, this raise essentially puts you all-in, so you should imagine that the raise is to 2000 instead. That gives you 2450:1600, or 1.5:1. You therefore need a Category 4 hand or better to call that, so you should fold

Am I looking to deep into this?

ps thanks for reply
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 02:42 PM
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!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by strupper101 View Post
S & G Middle phase Pot odds decision

The blinds are 50/100, you have 2,000 chips, and are on the button. Everyone folds and you have - a category 5 hand. You raise to 400. The big blind has a stack of 3,000 and raises to 1,500. Your pot odds are 1950:1100, or slightly worse than 2:1. However, this raise essentially puts you all-in, so you should imagine that the raise is to 2000 instead. That gives you 2450:1600, or 1.5:1. You therefore need a Category 4 hand or better to call that, so you should fold

Am I looking to deep into this?

ps thanks for reply
After looking it over, it looks as though you're correct with everything except the first part where your odds appear to be 2050:1100 instead of 1950, but that seems pretty insignificant and the odds are basically the same.
So everything looks correct in your interpretation to me. I guess I'm not following what you're having trouble with on it.
According to their guide, than yes, fold is the correct play.
When you reply, let me know your concerns of the play. But, I would suggest that you put this into a question and start a new thread in the hands analysis forum, and lets see what some of our analyzers think of this play. We may get some different ideas there.
Sorry I can't be of more help at the moment.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 04:16 PM
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mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I think where you went wrong is that it says that he raised to 1500 not that he raised 1500 that is where your 100 discrepancy lies. he actually raised your 400 by 1000+ his big blind
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 06:10 PM
(#6)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
ok..yeah..duh..

150+400+1400=1950 ...still, really doesn't matter here.

1950:1100 then they are saying you'll essentially be all in to his raise and that would be 2450:1600 and require a category 4 hand to call.

Last edited by !!!111Dan; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 07:07 PM.. Reason: have to think
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 10:35 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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POT ODDS ARE:

S.1 SB = 50
S.2 BB = 100
S.3 folds
S.4 folds
S.5 folds
S.6 Villain X limps 100 (Pot = 250)
S.7 Villain Y RAISES, making it 400 to go for a "cold" entry, 300 for Villain X and BB, 350 for SB. (Pot = 650)
S.8 folds
S.9 YOU (Button)

In this spot you must CALL 400, for the chance to win 650,
or...
The price you are getting is 1.625 to 1.

You must WIN 1 time in 2.625 times to "break even" on your call (38.09%)

But to truly work out your decision, you must assess the likelihood of others calling. It helps greatly to know their pot odds too.

If you Call, the pot will be 1050.

SB will need to call 350 for a chance to win 1050, or 3 to 1. He needs to only expect to have a 25% chance to win to make that call ok.

If the SB calls, the BB will see a pot of 1400. He will have to call just 300 to continue, getitng a price of 4.667 to 1. He will need only a 17.65% chance to make calling ok.

Pot is now 1700, and it is back to Villain X. He must call 300 for the chance to win 1700, getting 5.667 to 1 to call, and needing only a 15% chance to win to break even on his call.

See?
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 10:57 PM
(#8)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
JD..isn't there going to be another 500 included in pot / implied odds that comes from the villian calling our assumed all in here...bringing it to 2950:1600?

there's no others involved, hero is on button, folded to him, sb folds to raise, villain in bb 3bets.

middle phase of sng,

villain...100+1400+500 = 2000 ... stack of 3K
hero...400+1600 = 2000 .. stack of 2K
sb ..50

total pot 4050:1600 wouldn't it be implied?...what am i missing here? from the 2450:1600 to the 2950:1600
The reason I ask this line, is that in the example, they imply that it IS going all essentially because of the pot commitment to just a call. So my thinking is if you're going to call, then our scenario is that it is all in pre flop by a 4bet. Thus requiring a category 4 hand.
....I think I conveyed my thoughts correctly. Playin' w/ the drunkies over at eff's tank.


edit..edit..in the last paragraph.

.....

Last edited by !!!111Dan; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 11:01 PM.. Reason: last paragraph
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:06 PM
(#9)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
I wanted to think this through a bit, but now that you're here, I was going to say...this is a perfect example to explain the difference in pot odds and implied odds here. And that is what I'm asking for you and any others to do here.
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 02:06 AM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by strupper101 View Post
S & G Middle phase Pot odds decision

The blinds are 50/100, you have 2,000 chips, and are on the button. Everyone folds and you have - a category 5 hand. You raise to 400. The big blind has a stack of 3,000 and raises to 1,500. Your pot odds are 1950:1100, or slightly worse than 2:1. However, this raise essentially puts you all-in, so you should imagine that the raise is to 2000 instead. That gives you 2450:1600, or 1.5:1. You therefore need a Category 4 hand or better to call that, so you should fold

Am I looking to deep into this?

ps thanks for reply
I just gave you an easy example of pot odds in prior post. It didn;t address your question. I will now:

this lesson info is describing a situation where you are trying to calculate your IMPLIED ODDS if you continue in this hand. Pot odds are the "immediate" cost of a call in terms of what you stand to win versus what you must put at risk. Implied odds are the "educated guesses" you make about what future actions may do to the pot size, and the amount you must call to continue. They consider all future action on subsequent streets.

The situation as laid out in the lesson is such that CALLING puts you 3/4ths of the way into the pot (75% of your chips in). That is so far past a committment point, that you simply CANNOT fold on ANY flop. This means when you see the re-raise to 1500 over the top of your initial 400 raise, you can assume that you simply will NOT be just playing for the 1500 of that raise amount, nor will you have just the possibility of winning a pot of the size your call would make; you WILL be playing for all your stack...see?

That is the "back story" of why the lesson is laid out as it is...

Now look at how the pot "grows":

Pre-Action, the blinds put 150 in.
You open the action by raising to 400. This puts the pot at 550.
The Villain in the BB with a 3k stack then RE-RAISES, making it 1500 to go.
He had posted 100, and raises an additional 1400, so the pot is now 1950.

At this point your odds for a CALL would be 1100 : 1950, because you have to risk 1100 for a chance to win 1950...see?

Moving on...

The point of the lesson though is you CANNOT CALL; you must shove or fold.
This means you are not risking 1100, you are risking the entirety of your remaining 1600 (what's left after your 400 raise).

So if you "assume" the Villian's re-raise was for 2000, and put you all in, instead of 1500 you would have "seen" a pot of 2450. This is a valid way to view it, since if you continue in the hand YOU WILL be all in at some point anyway...see?

That means by continuing with the hand has you are risking 1600 (the amount you have left after your open raise) for a chance to win 2450 (1950 actual pot + 500 "extra" the villain would have called = 2450)...see?

(NOTE: this way of considering implied odds is very simplistic because it does not factor in the chance the villian will fold to your shove. in the example given, the chance he'd fold is microscopic because he would be getting well over 8 to 1 odds. In a lot of implied odds calculations, it is not so clear cut that what the villain will do.)

Last edited by JDean; Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 02:19 AM..
 
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oops caused a rucas! - Mon Jul 18, 2011, 04:13 PM
(#11)
strupper101's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 6
WhiteStar
I can see what you are saying (re implied odd/pot odds) but this exercise was all about pot odds ( I have tried the S&G twice and not passed yet, perhaps thats why I'm not getting this ) On re reading the excercise (several times!) I am still not understanding i.e even though this was a "pot odds" exercise why this extra 500 .(1950 in pot to final amount of 2450 for working out pot odds). Perhaps I should stick to 5 card draw?
 
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Mon Jul 18, 2011, 04:21 PM
(#12)
strupper101's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 6
WhiteStar
Yep ty that does help a bit, more to this than meets the eye (still trying to memorise the catagory of pre flop hands!) Still not sure were this extra 500 chips come from though (your feeling angry now are'nt you
 
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Mon Jul 18, 2011, 11:26 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
No matter what the lesson says, or what you thought it said, based on what was put up there the suggestion they give for this problem IS an "implied odds" thought...not a pot odds one.

Perhaps the lesson "assumes" you will not call? And the lesson assumes you WILL shove...That is a perfectly valid assumption.

Since that would be what you should do (if you are going to keep playing), then you must "assume" the additional 500 chips are in the pot "now" from your shove, and a call by the opponent. That means you are not playing for 1100 to win 1950, you are playing for 1600 to win 2450 (if you shove), see?

Don;t see how I can make it any clearer than that...
 

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