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Skill League tourney, facing a shove.

 
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Skill League tourney, facing a shove. - Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:11 PM
(#1)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
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Here's an interesting one from a different thread that I thought could use discussion.

Im not sure what the point gain/loss would be at this level without playing, but I imagine it's a loss of a few, depending on the hero's score in the league.



Thoughts on all aspects...pre and post flop of play?

Here's the original thread.
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...e-the-Russians
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:21 PM
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pre flop facing the 3 bet simple just shove over top.. post flop horrible.. I would never fold kings there.. what type of range does the villain have that includes a 6?
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:22 PM
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If the hero is calling pre, I think it should be with the knowledge that someone is likely to call behind or raise, but multiple callers is unlikely. The actual outcome where nobody overcalled or raised is also fine. The point would be to severely disguise the strength of the hero's hand and strongly encourage a double-up on the flop. However, that requires the commitment to shove any flop, with the possible exception of three-flush three-straight, or ace-high flops, if loss of points is a serious concern. In a regular MTT, I would likely shove any flop.

I think the flop fold is horrible, because that is almost the single best flop KK could hope for (flopping any kind of boat would be the only superior flop, I believe). Not only is the villain having split trips significantly less likely than them having a split pair since there are only two cards they could have instead of three, I really can't see that specific card in the villain's range very often at all. This was an obvious call on the flop.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 09:26 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:32 PM
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!!!111Dan's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
pre flop facing the 3 bet simple just shove over top.. post flop horrible.. I would never fold kings there.. what type of range does the villain have that includes a 6?
It's not a 3bet, a 3x raise.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:34 PM
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I should add that villains should probably be betting any pocket pair or suited overcards for value here, and there are more combos of those than sixes and aces.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
It's not a 3bet, a 3x raise.
tomatoe tamahhtoe lol either way I am shipping it lol
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
tomatoe tamahhtoe lol either way I am shipping it lol
'tomatoe' sounds like a really weird native tribe, and 'tamahhtoe' just sounds like you're opeming your mouth really wide.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 09:41 PM
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well I have been accused of having a big mouth
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 10:49 PM
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i thought this guy was crazy when i first saw this hand. snap call imo. at 200/400 blinds i think it's definitely positive points territory, the villain is probably on a flush draw chase or over pair to the board, 10 10, JJ which you are still crushing and if infact you were behind after calling you still have outs i'm sure.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 10:55 PM
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Lately a concept I've been thinking about is 'tournament survival' and 'risk minimization'. Because personally I make these calls 100% of the time (based on the math of the individual hand). And time and again, I see people getting better results by avoiding these clashes of the monster hands, with their monster pots.

I've lost so much money by getting my chips into the middle when I knew I was far ahead - only to be busted by long-shots. Some examples:


(the tiny post-flop raise was me trying to dangle a 'carrot' ... boy, I really trapped them, eh? )


(based on their betting patterns, I knew for sure they didn't have a heart, otherwise I wouldn't have shoved)

Like, putting the cards aside for a minute, with a call and fold, that'd still leave a stack of 8000 chips - guaranteed tournament survival, with a healthy stack. Like I guess the big stack can afford to go all-in, whereas for KK it's do or die (even if losing is likely a statistical long-shot)? Anybody think that's a valid consideration? Not just in PSO, but in other tourneys - is that how others are playing games?

That second hand, that AQ ended up winning $14 because of that hand

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 10:58 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 10:58 PM
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I don't like the call preflop. I'm raising him back (at least 3-5BB, if not shoving).

The only way you can fold on the flop is if you put them on AA, 99 or 66. Don't know the way they were playing hands before it... but most likely, I'd be calling.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:10 PM
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One hour in, this is still negative points territory though - for some people it's as high as -20 points.

Yeah, I thought something like JJ or QQ might be possible - no 3bet, and set over set is rare, so maybe with a hand like that they'd think it might be good with the board as it is, but not if he let others with hands like AQ (in the case of JJ), or AK draw out?

I like 3betting to gauge a person's reaction - but then again, I've been playing hand by hand, and not with tournament survival in mind, so ....

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 11:16 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:22 PM
(#13)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
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lol @ flop leatherass bet on hand #1. Funny how effective that was. I'd say that was an awkward preflop 3bet though, since it's too small to commit yourself on the flop, which is what you want I think, since you're going to have a lot of bad flops. It also will potentially get you isolated against only overpairs and AK against tight opponents, so I think I prefer a call there.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:28 PM
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TrustySam's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
lol @ flop leatherass bet on hand #1. Funny how effective that was. I'd say that was an awkward preflop 3bet though, since it's too small to commit yourself on the flop, which is what you want I think, since you're going to have a lot of bad flops. It also will potentially get you isolated against only overpairs and AK against tight opponents, so I think I prefer a call there.
Did it look like I might have had something like KK When I 3bet? Ideally I was hoping they'd fold, because ya I didn't want to get in too deep. That was the 'plan' anyways

May try a call next time ... see how that goes
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Lately a concept I've been thinking about is 'tournament survival' and 'risk minimization'. Because personally I make these calls 100% of the time (based on the math of the individual hand). And time and again, I see people getting better results by avoiding these clashes of the monster hands, with their monster pots.

I've lost so much money by getting my chips into the middle when I knew I was far ahead - only to be busted by long-shots. Some examples:


(the tiny post-flop raise was me trying to dangle a 'carrot' ... boy, I really trapped them, eh? )


(based on their betting patterns, I knew for sure they didn't have a heart, otherwise I wouldn't have shoved)

Like, putting the cards aside for a minute, with a call and fold, that'd still leave a stack of 8000 chips - guaranteed tournament survival, with a healthy stack. Like I guess the big stack can afford to go all-in, whereas for KK it's do or die (even if losing is likely a statistical long-shot)? Anybody think that's a valid consideration? Not just in PSO, but in other tourneys - is that how others are playing games?

That second hand, that AQ ended up winning $14 because of that hand
I basically made a pretty long post on that thread about that hand lol..

Trustysam: man, if you get a bad beat, just think if you made the correct play, if they're bad beating you it means you're getting it in with the best, which is pretty good. I've seen both hands and I just want to point out a couple of things to try and help:

1st hand: you don't need to build a big pot here by 3betting, specially that small reraise and thus low FE. I think flatting is a superior play, followed by reshoving. Shoving is prob too heavy with our stack, we would need some info like villains's raise/folding range, which we obviously don't have.

2nd: very well played imo. That flop hits lots of his range (unless he's a huge donk and calling with rags pre?) so very nice check/shove.

Last edited by Hen-Golden; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 11:33 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:33 PM
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PanickyPoker's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hen-Golden View Post
1st hand: you don't need to build a big pot here by 3betting, specially that small and thus low FE. I think flatting is a superior play, followed by reshoving. Shoving is prob too heavy, we would need some info like villains's raise/folding range, which we obviously don't have.
I think that reshoving might be slightly worse than 3betting a little larger in hopes of getting worse hands to 4bet. Maybe not, since the stacks are too short to assume that there would be any fold equity. Reshoving should only isolate you against TT+ and AQ+ or stronger, imo. Stats would help for sure, though.

3betting there doesn't look like KK+, really, but even if it does, I think that QQ and AK and probably JJ will make a crying call.
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hen-Golden View Post
1st hand: you don't need to build a big pot here by 3betting, specially that small and thus low FE. I think flatting is a superior play, followed by reshoving. Shoving is prob too heavy, we would need some info like villains's raise/folding range, which we obviously don't have.

2nd: very well played imo. That flop hits lots of his range (unless he's a huge donk and calling with rags pre?) so very nice check/shove.
Okay - ya, next time I better just call. Sometimes when the blinds get high, I start focusing on those more than the cards - I guess 99 is good enough to play for value, eh?

I should have been more conservative because of the lack of reads - I said I was going to try to do that, be more cautious. I forgot tho

That's a good tip - thx!!

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri Jul 15, 2011 at 11:37 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I think that reshoving might be slightly worse than 3betting a little larger in hopes of getting worse hands to 4bet. Reshoving should only isolate you against TT+ and AQ+ or stronger, imo. But stats would help for sure.

3betting there doesn't look like KK+, really, but even if it does, I think that QQ and AK and probably JJ will make a crying call.
No wonder they called lol!

I didn't have any reads - they just arrived at the table and dove right in, and this was their first hand. That's frustrating when that happens
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I don't like the call preflop. I'm raising him back (at least 3-5BB, if not shoving).

The only way you can fold on the flop is if you put them on AA, 99 or 66. Don't know the way they were playing hands before it... but most likely, I'd be calling.
If you 3bet without shoving you're building a huge pot. If the flop comes A high it's going to be a really marginal spot to call if he ships/fold. I think by reshoving we extract the most in EV terms, at least imo

Last edited by Hen-Golden; Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 12:05 AM..
 
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Fri Jul 15, 2011, 11:36 PM
(#20)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I don't like the call preflop. I'm raising him back (at least 3-5BB, if not shoving).
The only way you can fold on the flop is if you put them on AA, 99 or 66. Don't know the way they were playing hands before it... but most likely, I'd be calling.
I don't think, pre, you can put him on Aces at any time without 3 betting pre which should be done w/ KK..category 1..correct?
But..it is a concern of the league in the points here...but I feel that these perfect isolations you are looking for just have to be gambled with here...you're going to be so ahead so often, and only getting so few of the opportunities.


Here's his start,
QUOTE curvyroads;289722 ...you guys play bad, this is how you should play KK for value against donks

Here's our thoughs
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
What Curvy??

SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSnap call.
Even in pso, I'm all over that double up.
If he had a hand better than yours, and was a good player, he'd have bet for value instead of shoving.
And why didn't you 3bet? You'd have gotten better info on his hand that way.
Quote:
Originally Posted by curvyroads View Post
you've never been into that jungle of luck boxes have you ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
Not lately.
But I can understand a little.
It's hard to read how many were left and what points you'd reached there, but the negative consequences aren't terrible there.
Like I said, you have to 3bet there being isolated to see if he jams and then maybe he has aces. But if you don't 3bet, you limp with the intention of folding...and that is just not a good play imo. If you're going to just call, you have to have a plan..and your plan was to fold to no ace?
I understand you didn't know he'd shove.
Isolated...3bet the 2nd best starting hand when the negatives won't get ya' too bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by curvyroads View Post
hmmm, i dont think 3bet would have gave me any info on the hand, since they all shove after a 3bet anyway, good point for the positive score, but the last thing i like to do is to put in all my chips with KK without seeing the whole board against a bigger stake , a lot of hands went through my mind but the speed of which he shoved after the flop could only mean AA to me.

There's some others going on there..funny what some can say.
 

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