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In situations like these

 
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In situations like these - Sat Jul 16, 2011, 07:36 AM
(#1)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
PokerStars Game #64627939982: Tournament #415297825, $3.16+$0.34 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2011/07/16 8:59:33 NT [2011/07/16 7:29:33 ET]
Table '415297825 1' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Verdichter (1810 in chips)
Seat 2: Kanzler_x_ (5260 in chips)
Seat 3: killonaces (1930 in chips)
Seat 4: elastutor1 (2250 in chips)
Seat 5: the_eagle23 (4865 in chips)
Seat 6: p4noramix (1975 in chips)
Seat 7: Macedo6 (2830 in chips)
Seat 8: kanut0 (1540 in chips)
Seat 9: moiram (4540 in chips)
Verdichter: posts the ante 25
Kanzler_x_: posts the ante 25
killonaces: posts the ante 25
elastutor1: posts the ante 25
the_eagle23: posts the ante 25
p4noramix: posts the ante 25
Macedo6: posts the ante 25
kanut0: posts the ante 25
moiram: posts the ante 25
Macedo6: posts small blind 100
kanut0: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_eagle23 [Qh Qd]
moiram: calls 200
Verdichter: folds
Kanzler_x_: folds
killonaces: folds
elastutor1: folds
the_eagle23: raises 4640 to 4840 and is all-in
p4noramix: folds
Macedo6: folds
kanut0: folds
moiram: folds
Uncalled bet (4640) returned to the_eagle23
the_eagle23 collected 925 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 925 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Verdichter folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Kanzler_x_ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: killonaces folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: elastutor1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: the_eagle23 collected (925)
Seat 6: p4noramix (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Macedo6 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: kanut0 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: moiram folded before Flop

I'm kinda unsure about what i should have did here. Should i have just stuck a raise in big enough for the limper to call me? Or was the shove good enough to take down the pot?
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 09:03 AM
(#2)
yahooza1's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 141
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well there's 2 ways you can look at this situation. 1 way is that you may have potentially lost some value in your strong hand by scaring your limper away. secondly you can look at it and say a pot won is a pot won, you could have potentially lost to K5 if the flop came king down. personally i'd be happy for the small gain.
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 09:38 AM
(#3)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by yahooza1 View Post
well there's 2 ways you can look at this situation. 1 way is that you may have potentially lost some value in your strong hand by scaring your limper away. secondly you can look at it and say a pot won is a pot won, you could have potentially lost to K5 if the flop came king down. personally i'd be happy for the small gain.
That's pretty much how i felt. I knew that if an A or K came on the flop it could potentially be a big loss for me. I felt an all-in would take down the pot and i'd rather be all-in pre-flop than be stuck in a "i don't know what to do" situation on the flop
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 10:22 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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I'd have put in a raise to 600-800 with it, then re-evaluated after the flop. If you push, about the only hands that will call you will be ones that you're behind (or at best case in a coin flip with).

If you put in a std raise, you can get some value from it if you don't get a K or A on the flop... but you still have plenty of chips left, that you can get off the hand if one does hit.

By pushing immediately, you'll either win a little or bust. If you raise, yes you can win a few more chips possibly or could lose a few more, but you eliminate the possibility of busting if an A or K hit the board.
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 10:44 AM
(#5)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I'd have put in a raise to 600-800 with it, then re-evaluated after the flop. If you push, about the only hands that will call you will be ones that you're behind (or at best case in a coin flip with).

If you put in a std raise, you can get some value from it if you don't get a K or A on the flop... but you still have plenty of chips left, that you can get off the hand if one does hit.

By pushing immediately, you'll either win a little or bust. If you raise, yes you can win a few more chips possibly or could lose a few more, but you eliminate the possibility of busting if an A or K hit the board.
Thx for the advice JWK. On another note, i ended up placing 2nd in this Sitngo earning me $17.xx something lol. The chips were about 15000, to 12000 me having 12000. I stuck a raise in with K Jo and got shoved so i said what the hey. Opponent turns over 44, Dry flop and nada on the turn and river... oh well i'm still happy
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 10:54 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_eagle23 View Post
Thx for the advice JWK. On another note, i ended up placing 2nd in this Sitngo earning me $17.xx something lol. The chips were about 15000, to 12000 me having 12000. I stuck a raise in with K Jo and got shoved so i said what the hey. Opponent turns over 44, Dry flop and nada on the turn and river... oh well i'm still happy
Congrats! KJo... sounds familiar, but I was up against AKo with it last night when I got ko'd.
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_eagle23 View Post
Thx for the advice JWK. On another note, i ended up placing 2nd in this Sitngo earning me $17.xx something lol. The chips were about 15000, to 12000 me having 12000. I stuck a raise in with K Jo and got shoved so i said what the hey. Opponent turns over 44, Dry flop and nada on the turn and river... oh well i'm still happy
Eagle...

Read this again (what you wrote), then consider the "stage" of your event.

That was the situation your were setting yourself up for, far SHORT of ITM, by your bet here.

Everyone at this table has plenty of chips to hurt you, and while QQ is a pretty good hand, when in somewhat "early" stages of a SNG type event, is it REALLY LIKELY an opponent is calling you on less?

If you had thought that either p4noramix or kanut0 (both under 10BB) would have felt you are light enough to stand, then your bet is a little "tricky", but more understandable. With a full table of 9 to wade thru, both those shorties can certainly wait a couple of hands before they even CONSIDER calling a shove, so that would be a pretty hard read to have.

The fact is that when you get a group 1 type hand, you WANT to get paid. If you consider that your shove is early enough in the event that no one can call you lightly, that means it is a TIGHT range that is calling, or you are not getitng any value at all from a gr 1 hand.

(NOTE: AA/KK/QQ/AK are all gunna call you, and MAYBE JJ might call; you are actually a small equity UNDERDOG by shoving into this range, at 47.4% vs 52.6%).

The Fundemental Theorem of Poker states that you want to configure your decisions so as to cause your opponents to make a MISTAKE...this gains you value.

All your betting does here is FOCE THEM into the "correct" play: either they fold a weaker hand they may have called on (like 88), or they call you with a BETTER hand than your QQ. That's not good for you...

Betting hugely pre-flop at stages like this is NOT "aggressive" poker...it is more akin to "scared" poker (if the reasons you shove in are to make sure no one calls you weakly to draw out). You will tend to only receive a gr 1 hand about 1 in 46 hands, and since those are the only hands you are really REALLY "confident" of being ahead with, you MUST try to extract more value from the infrequent times you get them...

So JWK is spot on: make a standard raise, and play a post-flop pot. You have plenty of chips to do so.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 02:03 PM..
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 02:34 PM
(#8)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Eagle...

Read this again (what you wrote), then consider the "stage" of your event.

That was the situation your were setting yourself up for, far SHORT of ITM, by your bet here.

Everyone at this table has plenty of chips to hurt you, and while QQ is a pretty good hand, when in somewhat "early" stages of a SNG type event, is it REALLY LIKELY an opponent is calling you on less?

If you had thought that either p4noramix or kanut0 (both under 10BB) would have felt you are light enough to stand, then your bet is a little "tricky", but more understandable. With a full table of 9 to wade thru, both those shorties can certainly wait a couple of hands before they even CONSIDER calling a shove, so that would be a pretty hard read to have.

The fact is that when you get a group 1 type hand, you WANT to get paid. If you consider that your shove is early enough in the event that no one can call you lightly, that means it is a TIGHT range that is calling, or you are not getitng any value at all from a gr 1 hand.

(NOTE: AA/KK/QQ/AK are all gunna call you, and MAYBE JJ might call; you are actually a small equity UNDERDOG by shoving into this range, at 47.4% vs 52.6%).

The Fundemental Theorem of Poker states that you want to configure your decisions so as to cause your opponents to make a MISTAKE...this gains you value.

All your betting does here is FOCE THEM into the "correct" play: either they fold a weaker hand they may have called on (like 88), or they call you with a BETTER hand than your QQ. That's not good for you...

Betting hugely pre-flop at stages like this is NOT "aggressive" poker...it is more akin to "scared" poker (if the reasons you shove in are to make sure no one calls you weakly to draw out). You will tend to only receive a gr 1 hand about 1 in 46 hands, and since those are the only hands you are really REALLY "confident" of being ahead with, you MUST try to extract more value from the infrequent times you get them...

So JWK is spot on: make a standard raise, and play a post-flop pot. You have plenty of chips to do so.
Wow, way to hold back there Dean lol. But ya i know i made the wrong play here and thanks for the advice. I guess it would of been better to take action on the flop, but u know anything can happen. Next time i know not to make the same mistake. But i don't think taking down the pot wasn't such a bad thing. Learn from your mistakes is what they say

P.S I don't think it was somewhat early in this sitgo(Maybe i'm wrong) but i wouldn't be surprised to see a call from A10 or AJ
 
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New and Improved - Sat Jul 16, 2011, 04:01 PM
(#9)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
PokerStars Game #64646509739: Tournament #415459503, $3.16+$0.34 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2011/07/16 17:28:40 NT [2011/07/16 15:58:40 ET]
Table '415459503 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: margrinder (4601 in chips)
Seat 3: joncole72 (10431 in chips)
Seat 4: koval1990 (2697 in chips)
Seat 5: siMMel_xAAx (3591 in chips)
Seat 8: the_eagle23 (2625 in chips)
Seat 9: alex2083 (3055 in chips)
margrinder: posts the ante 25
joncole72: posts the ante 25
koval1990: posts the ante 25
siMMel_xAAx: posts the ante 25
the_eagle23: posts the ante 25
alex2083: posts the ante 25
siMMel_xAAx: posts small blind 100
the_eagle23: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_eagle23 [Kc Kh]
alex2083: folds
margrinder: folds
joncole72: calls 200
koval1990: folds
siMMel_xAAx: folds
the_eagle23: raises 470 to 670
joncole72: calls 470
*** FLOP *** [9c 7d 3h]
the_eagle23: bets 770
joncole72: calls 770
*** TURN *** [9c 7d 3h] [4s]
the_eagle23: bets 1160 and is all-in
joncole72: folds
Uncalled bet (1160) returned to the_eagle23
the_eagle23 collected 3130 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3130 | Rake 0
Board [9c 7d 3h 4s]
Seat 1: margrinder folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: joncole72 folded on the Turn
Seat 4: koval1990 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: siMMel_xAAx (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: the_eagle23 (big blind) collected (3130)
Seat 9: alex2083 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

New and Improved!
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 04:53 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
The new hand is okay. There's a big difference between 13BB and 24BB though. I think you're betting too small on the flop. The preflop open is better than an open shove though, imo.
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 05:29 PM
(#11)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The new hand is okay. There's a big difference between 13BB and 24BB though. I think you're betting too small on the flop. The preflop open is better than an open shove though, imo.
Ya, i know what you mean, i tried to bet small so he would call hoping for his card or maybe suspect a bluff and raise me. I did place another 2nd place though, another $17.xx added to my bankroll, I seem to do fairly well at these

Last edited by the_eagle23; Sat Jul 16, 2011 at 05:31 PM..
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 06:55 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the_eagle23 View Post
Wow, way to hold back there Dean lol. But ya i know i made the wrong play here and thanks for the advice. I guess it would of been better to take action on the flop, but u know anything can happen. Next time i know not to make the same mistake. But i don't think taking down the pot wasn't such a bad thing. Learn from your mistakes is what they say

P.S I don't think it was somewhat early in this sitgo(Maybe i'm wrong) but i wouldn't be surprised to see a call from A10 or AJ
You do not say how many were in at the start.

You are still at a 9 handed table though, so it is essentially "early" in any mutil table SNG situation.
 
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Sat Jul 16, 2011, 07:10 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
The new hand is okay. There's a big difference between 13BB and 24BB though. I think you're betting too small on the flop. The preflop open is better than an open shove though, imo.
^^ What he said...

Here your situation is a bit different. The chips have "consolidated" down to the point where everyone is between 13 and 20BB, except the big stack.

Pre flop, really like your raise sizing. Versus the big stack, this may be perceived as "weak" when in fact you are almost certain putting 'em in if he re-pops you. So you definately gave him the chance to make a big "mistake"...me likee!

I like your line here as long as your intention is to go for it on the turn no matter what...

The board is semi dry considering that you raised, altho if you've seen that big stack accumulate his chips via playing wierd hands, the board MIGHT be a bit more scary...it still isn't loaded with threats though. So I canot say I "hate" your line if you are going to stand.

A 1/2 pot bet is a pretty standard C-Bet amount, and again it might lead to the big guy making a mistake versus you. As stated though, it pushes you past a committment point by a good way, so you really cannot fold on ANY turn. Your pre-flop raise and the call built the pot to the point where it represents about a 50% chip up for you from JUST winning this amount. If that big guy is going to call you on just a draw when you bet half pot, he is probably calling for your entire stack; you may as well get 'em in while ahead, right? All this adds up to the fact a shove on the flop MIGHT be "better" than your line versus a lot of opponents...

It is the size of the pot "win", relative to your stack size, that makes a potentially "value owning" bet more worthwhile. If you get called, you at least HAD good reason to think you might be ahead, and if they fold you are winning a 50% addtion to your stack...not the much smaller amount in the first hand.

See?
 
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Sun Jul 17, 2011, 09:09 AM
(#14)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
You do not say how many were in at the start.

You are still at a 9 handed table though, so it is essentially "early" in any mutil table SNG situation.
18 players
 
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Sun Jul 17, 2011, 09:09 AM
(#15)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
^^ What he said...

Here your situation is a bit different. The chips have "consolidated" down to the point where everyone is between 13 and 20BB, except the big stack.

Pre flop, really like your raise sizing. Versus the big stack, this may be perceived as "weak" when in fact you are almost certain putting 'em in if he re-pops you. So you definately gave him the chance to make a big "mistake"...me likee!

I like your line here as long as your intention is to go for it on the turn no matter what...

The board is semi dry considering that you raised, altho if you've seen that big stack accumulate his chips via playing wierd hands, the board MIGHT be a bit more scary...it still isn't loaded with threats though. So I canot say I "hate" your line if you are going to stand.

A 1/2 pot bet is a pretty standard C-Bet amount, and again it might lead to the big guy making a mistake versus you. As stated though, it pushes you past a committment point by a good way, so you really cannot fold on ANY turn. Your pre-flop raise and the call built the pot to the point where it represents about a 50% chip up for you from JUST winning this amount. If that big guy is going to call you on just a draw when you bet half pot, he is probably calling for your entire stack; you may as well get 'em in while ahead, right? All this adds up to the fact a shove on the flop MIGHT be "better" than your line versus a lot of opponents...

It is the size of the pot "win", relative to your stack size, that makes a potentially "value owning" bet more worthwhile. If you get called, you at least HAD good reason to think you might be ahead, and if they fold you are winning a 50% addtion to your stack...not the much smaller amount in the first hand.

See?
Thanks for this, it was a good read
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 09:40 AM
(#16)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
should prolly min raise or 2.5x open, shoving there isnt really optimal......
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 03:36 PM
(#17)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Some "Moderators" find it funny to give me a hard time.........lol

aka Trumpinjoe the trumpin crumpet hahah

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 03:37 PM.. Reason: spelling
 

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