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PLO, good fold?

 
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PLO, good fold? - Fri Jul 22, 2011, 03:44 PM
(#1)
bluejack17's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 63
BronzeStar
This one is bugging me. The guy sat out immediately afterward and left the table shortly after, so I couldn't get any information out of him.

It was a limped pot pre-flop, so I called with with two pocket pairs to see if i could flop a set. And yes, this was play money. but I still want some feedback.

PokerStars Game #64919375201: 8-Game (Omaha Pot Limit, 10/20) - 2011/07/22 14:20:51 CT [2011/07/22 15:20:51 ET]
Table 'Deipylos VI' 6-max (Play Money) Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: 8-bricktop-4 (1960 in chips)
Seat 2: grumpy549 (2284 in chips)
Seat 3: A2mains (8133 in chips)
Seat 4: Lirada (1428 in chips)
Seat 5: bluejack17 (3586 in chips)
Seat 6: Vadim 19700 (5861 in chips)
8-bricktop-4: posts small blind 10
grumpy549: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to bluejack17 [Js 2d 2c Jd]
A2mains: calls 20
Lirada: calls 20
bluejack17: calls 20
Vadim 19700: calls 20
8-bricktop-4: calls 10
grumpy549: checks
*** FLOP *** [2s 8c 8h]
8-bricktop-4: checks
grumpy549: checks
A2mains: checks
Lirada: checks
bluejack17: bets 80
Vadim 19700: raises 179 to 259
8-bricktop-4: folds
grumpy549: folds
A2mains: folds
Lirada: folds
bluejack17: raises 341 to 600
Vadim 19700: calls 341
*** TURN *** [2s 8c 8h] [Kc]
bluejack17: bets 900
Vadim 19700: raises 3040 to 3940
bluejack17: folds
Uncalled bet (3040) returned to Vadim 19700
Vadim 19700 collected 3120 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3120 | Rake 0
Board [2s 8c 8h Kc]
Seat 1: 8-bricktop-4 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: grumpy549 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: A2mains folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Lirada folded on the Flop
Seat 5: bluejack17 folded on the Turn
Seat 6: Vadim 19700 (button) collected (3120)
 
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Fri Jul 22, 2011, 04:15 PM
(#2)
ketchup143's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 279
BronzeStar
realize it's play money and ur opp's could have anything. thinking about this hand from a real money perspective, i don't like ur flop raise. in real money, ur opp. is gonna have 82 so often u almost just have to fold. i guess he could have a bare AA or KK. with that said, i also don't like ur value bet on the turn when an overcard rolls off, cause now even MORE stuff has u beat u were right to fold, but u could have lost a lot less...just bet and call the flop, check and fold the turn...unless u got some sick read on this guy
 
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Fri Jul 22, 2011, 04:50 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
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I think you made a good fold. I didn't care for the flop raise either... it was already down to just you and the opp, so you didn't need to try and isolate anyone. When the K comes on the turn and they push, I think you're beat. They could easily have KK, 88, suited K8 or more likely K2 with another pair or even pair with 28.

I wouldn't put them on 88 for the nuts, because then they should be trying to get value out of you, but K2 for second high full house is a real possibility, along with 28.
 
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Fri Jul 22, 2011, 05:41 PM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
1) Hands like JJ22 that are not suited in any way are not very good at all in a PLO game. Not only is your chance of flopping any set not very good, but if one of the sets you might flop can only be bottom set you chances of flopping a good, but 2nd best hand goes way up. add in the fact that PLO tends to be a game with a lot more drawing chances than hold 'em, and that 2nd best shot only increases. So I'm folding this pre-flop a lot more often than not, and if I do play it, I want it heads up if possible.

2) You flop bottom boat, and lead out as you should actually. When you get raised, the best you are hoping for is that your opponent only has an 8; in that case you are still likely to be fading 3 cards for him to hit his kicker by the river...any of which will beat your weak boat. At most I think you should call his raise, not re-pop as you did.

3) When he flats your re-pop, and the K comes, youreally should be thinking of check/calling AT MOST. You led for 900 though. That lead gets re-raised strongly, so in this spot at least you did exactly what you should do: Fold. Good job.

Fact is though, you did lose more on the hand than you should have. You gotta remember: aggression is "good" in poker, but if you are aggressive AND out of position, you will often cost yourself more than you need to. Oftentimes oop play will "force" you into the more passive check/call line if you think a marginal hand you hold is still "best".

At least you did this at a play money table, which can be a good place to tet out betting thoughts.
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 06:35 AM
(#5)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
why post a play money hand? its a waste of time and yes this is a obvious fold when playing for reals
 
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Tue Jul 26, 2011, 07:59 PM
(#6)
bluejack17's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 63
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
why post a play money hand? its a waste of time and yes this is a obvious fold when playing for reals

Oh. So since it was play money, I shouldn't know how to play correctly and shouldn't get input from others? I shouldn't care about geting better? Foolish thing for you to say, sir. Quite foolish indeed. Not much else for US players to do, is there?

To everyone else contributing to my query, I appreciate the info. I understand folding that preflop, but for such a little amount it seemed worthwhile to see a flop and re-evaluate after.

As for my flop actions, I was going off my read of the guy. He was going to town with minimal stuff quite often.

Just for a "what if" scenario...If I check on the turn, I'd guess at least 8 times out of 10, the opponent would bet pot. How then do I know where I stand? He could have just an 8, maybe slow played a bigger pair. If I lead out and get re-raised, then I for sure know that my hand isn't good.
 
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Tue Jul 26, 2011, 09:10 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejack17 View Post

To everyone else contributing to my query, I appreciate the info. I understand folding that preflop, but for such a little amount it seemed worthwhile to see a flop and re-evaluate after.
couple ways to look at that...

1) the money you do NOT LOSE is exactly equal to the money you win. Both are still in your pocket.

2) nothing is more "expensive" than a good, but 2nd best hand. You bink a set, but it is bottom set...then what?

a lot of times the "chance" to win more, when it is very small, is not wroth the risk of LOSING more...even if it is "cheap".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejack17 View Post
As for my flop actions, I was going off my read of the guy. He was going to town with minimal stuff quite often.

Just for a "what if" scenario...If I check on the turn, I'd guess at least 8 times out of 10, the opponent would bet pot. How then do I know where I stand? He could have just an 8, maybe slow played a bigger pair. If I lead out and get re-raised, then I for sure know that my hand isn't good.
You don't say if by "going to town" that means he WILL give you info by re raising your strong before you have a ton of chips in the pot.

That is the "hassle" of playing hands which might make an under-boat in PLO, especially when oop. Starting to see WHY coming in with a hand having a bit of "potential" can result in a very hard decision process later on? See how it being "cheap" will often not off-set the potential loss you might face?

Fact is, when you C/R'ed the flop, THAT was your "stab" at getting him to fold "air". When he didn't muck, then you must really begin to suspect your bottom boat might be no good.

I really must say I do not like your C/R on the flop much, since you are so vulnerable. I think you'd have been better served LEADING; at that point the pot would not only be smaller, but you could interpret continued callers as the potential "threats" they are. you also might trigger re-raises that will give you the desired info.
Your C/R is a STRONG move which means if the villain has a stronger hand than yours, he might now wake up and not "pound", perfering to let you hang yourself until the river has you so deep you cannot fold...see?

Bottom boat in PLO is a lot like bottom 2 pair in Hold 'em:

It is a hand which has a pretty ok chance to be "best" on the flop, but the later in the hand you get, the more vulnerable it tends to become. this argues for you to stab once early, then REALLY "slow down", and even possibly fold, to later street aggression. By banging so hard so early (your C/R), you opened the door for flats by the villain to extract more value form your made hand.

Even if you ARE ahead, if he flats the C/R, he is probably drawing pretty strongly. This means at most, you MIGHT check/call late street action with your under-baot as a bluff catcher, but it really is not worth much more than that...

See?

Last edited by JDean; Wed Jul 27, 2011 at 03:29 AM..
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 02:49 PM
(#8)
bluejack17's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 63
BronzeStar
It made sense before, I was just playing a little devil's advocate. Thanks for the info.

And by "going to town," I meant he could've just as easily had a backdoor flush draw that he was raising with there. And I'm not joking.
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 03:09 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluejack17 View Post

And by "going to town," I meant he could've just as easily had a backdoor flush draw that he was raising with there. And I'm not joking.
all the more reaosn NOT to play "marginal" hands versus someone who is that much of a "lagtard"...

give yourself a 'break", and wait for hands which give you a lot clearer decisions than this one versus the extremely BAD spew monkies. saving your chips by not playing weak start hands that give those bad decisions will be nicely rewrded when you can play stronger holdings with clearer decisions...he WILL pay you off big time if your read is spot on and he will donk a ton of chips into the pot on crazy back door draws.

Mike Caro has a saying:

"Whenever you face a player whose poker deviates from optimal play, it is in your best interests to LOOSEN UP."

"Conventional Wisdom" tends to be: "Loosen up versus tight players (to steal more blinds on bluffs), and tighten up versus loose players (to ensure you are well ahead of their ranges, thus giving you easier decisions).

these 2 things might seem at odds with each other, but they are not really...

CW says you should bluff more versus tight players. Caro's statement agrees.
CW says you should TIGHTEN versus loose players, but Caro disagrees...but only a bit.

What Caro means is that you SHOULD be playing an optimal range without info. When you have info, you begin to deviate form optimal based on the info you have. If the info says an opponent is a lagtard, you can loosen up off an optimal range, and still be TIGHTER than his range...thus maintaining simplicty in a lot of your decisions.

JJ22 without suits will only have 4 cards it is drawing to on the flop that will tend to make it continuable (an over pair hand JJ is NOT a good enough hand to keep going on in PLO if the over pair is all you have, as i'm sure you know). so right up front, you are so loosened up that your chances of being able to continue are quite small...right?

Flopping a 2 is not going to give you an 'easy" decision, because bottom set is never a "fun" hand to play in PLO, and bottom boat is also a pretty tricky one too.

So it all comes back to the fact electing to paly JJ22 no suits is probably TOO LOOSE to really be profitable versus someone with so little betting structure ANY decision you make will tend to either win you a lot, or cost you a lot.
 

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