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6 Max Final Table Hand

 
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6 Max Final Table Hand - Mon Jul 25, 2011, 02:18 AM
(#1)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Played a hand against an absolute retard on a 6 max final table, just before he snap called my 4 bet shove with 66 i had the goods and he has been an absolute station throughout the FT. Also has been super active on my small blind as big blind was a super rock folding his blind consistantly.

stack sizes are

(Seems ok) : 70,000
(cutoff) Villain : 330,000
(Button): 40,000
(Small Blind) : 110,000
(Big Blind) Me: 350,000


5 players remain im chip leader Blinds are 2000/4000 with antes, It gets folded round to villain who min raises 8,000 on the button. I decide to 3 bet 20,000 with A-9 of spades from big blind which i believed was for value, as we suspect the rock in small blind folds and retard flatts the 3 bet on the button.

Pot is about 44,000 Flop comes AC-2S-7S with two spades, so yeahp caught a monster flop for my hand i go ahead and c bet about 16,000 (hoping hell come over the top with my small bet size) villain calls. Turn comes a 5 of diamond so its a brick. My dillemma was thinking about weather i should bet here or check, Villain had been folding a ton of turn bets to others and i didn't want to lose value by him folding here..........so after much consideration i decide to check hopeing hell donk off chips here and hay he bets woo hoo 34,000 he bets and i call intending on snap calling a river bet :O

River comes another 7 so i missed my flush draw, pot is about 140,000. It was very possible for villain to have a 7 here in his range........so i decide to check intending on calling his bet here, he also has a good enough bluff freqeuncy to be bluffing here too.....then he goes and bets about 45,000 i called and got the bad news weeeeee he had 7-8 offsuit great job hahah




Anyways just wanted to know what anyone else would do here?

Check raise, call as i did or bet the turn?

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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 04:08 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Fact is, per your read, you got a ton of value in your hand versus his range.
Also per your read, you will tend to dry up a ton of that value by check raising him.

Since this guy seems to "see" 2nd pair as good enough to call on the flop, but since you've also seen he isn't going to the wall with those hands (because he tends to fold to turn bets),
that means a C/R is going to run him out too much of the time to be worth slamming the door in his face. Besides, a C/R COULD run into the typical "donk" type hands like, A2/A5/A7 or even a flopped set; and there IS a chance he raised up A/Face too... ('course your reads do not mention his calling vs 3/4 bet range, so a lot of those may be out of the picture).

So you are either giving him an "easy out" from the pot when another check on the riv is likely to get you more from him whether he spikes or not, OR you are getting called by a better hand.

Overall, I gotta say I really like your line, especially the re-pop pre at the short handed table.
Nice ranging, and too bad he did spike; at least you lost about as little as you could.
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 04:12 AM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Thought #1) If he's an absolute station, there's one tried-and-true strategy to dealing with him: wait for the nuts then ram-and-jam. You basically flopped the nuts, so I suspect that anyone who comments will tell you that they would have bet big on flop, bet big on turn, check/called on river, with a check/fold on the river from some of the more disciplined readers.

Thought #2) If you're pretty sure he'll bet the turn, then I have no idea why we're not check/jamming.

Thought #3) Again, if he's a level one thinker, then the simplest answer is usually the best one. If he bets pot on the river, I think you can find a fold with only top pair and a bad kicker. Calling might be straight-up bad if he doesn't recognize that the seven gives him a profitable bluffing spot (although you did say that he has a bluffing range).

Overall, I'm not a fan of the line at all, especially on the flop and turn.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:14 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 04:31 AM
(#4)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
I dont get how my line on the flop could be bad, should i be betting bigger??? i mean playing a big pot OOP vs the nxt big stack on the table at FT wasnt really in my plan..... im not exactly holding a big hand yet given how deep we are... but i know im crushing his calling range which is cool

And incase villain was strong i wasnt that keen to C/raise the turn with A9 there incase he had somekind of A2 A5 A7, set 2 pair sorta hand which he very well could have, besides that i ddnt want to lose value in the hand by betting the turn because as i mentioned earlier villain had been folding a ton to double barrels...............Jdean mentioned just before.......
And yeah i posted because my dillema was what to do on the turn check call or check raise or just barrel into him?

panicky i dont think u were paying attention to the analysis that i wrote up?

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 04:45 AM.. Reason: spelling
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 05:04 AM
(#5)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
and what good does check jamming do on the turn? what do we get value from?? yeah hands that beat us.........hes not a knob post flop and he wont call off when hes beat on A high boards.............
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 05:12 AM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I somehow got from your analysis that they guy was a calling station. I reread the post and I guess I was wrong about that.

Barreling the flop is fine, and I do think that betting big is better than betting small. Since you probably have the best hand (and that probably should be your assumption if you thought that 3betting pre was for value), and since you are almost guaranteed to have the most equity in the pot, your flop bet should be for value. Betting small doesn't really accomplish anything. It doesn't get you value when you're ahead, it weakens the bluff potential of the bet... It's ambivalent.

On the turn, I think that check-shoving is good because again, you are probably ahead, and even if you're not, a quarter of the deck will pretty likely get you there. You did say that the villain has bluffs on the turn, so if you check/call and they don't have anything, will they put anything else in on the river? If not, then you should end it now, because with only one pair at the moment, you can get drawn out on.

So, I think that you should have bet bigger on the flop; and I think that a check-shove would have been okay on the turn, but a check/call isn't horrible, although a double-barrel would be better imo.

Maybe I'm wrong about the check-shove, but I think that you're seeing ghosts if you think that going into cheap showdown mode here is the best line. The villain can be ahead on the turn, but usually won't be, and you already said that he's capable of bluffing it, so why put him on a stronger hand than yours? Check-shoving actually gets him off of some of his better hands, while protecting you from being drawn out on by worse ones, and even if he calls with something like a set, you have plenty of outs.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 05:19 AM..
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 05:18 AM
(#7)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
No man i wasnt going into cheap showdown mode i was simply playing the hand in a way that villain would still give me value from worse hands..........but obviously had to go to cheap showdown once the river hit........

bt yeah check shoving the turn was definantly a good option too lol sad i didn't take it

hmm so u assume because the way i played it i put villain on a better hand than me on the turn'? Wierd i never said anything about him possibly having me beat until the river........

, i just didnt want to run into the better part of his range there given he was the only person on the table who could hurt me, but still wanted him to fire and give me value, just unfortunant a 7 peeled off...........

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Mon Jul 25, 2011 at 07:03 AM.. Reason: mistake
 
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Mon Jul 25, 2011, 07:40 AM
(#8)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Right here is a conversation i had about the hand and panickypoker's opinion on check shoving the turn with a good freind Jackson Zheng he is a established poker pro with several huge live scores, n we play 5/10 200bb at our local cas together lol well preferably not together...................

swt done
btw nice new pics

2 minutes agoJackson Zheng
i barrel turn instead to get value from draws
and ty ty
if ur kicker is worse i guess u can c/c instead
as played c/r and c/c both ok

about a minute agoBrandon Naidu
lol some guy was rambling on about how check shoving the turn is best is he wrong or is that ok also?

a few seconds agoJackson Zheng
hes wrong

a few seconds agoBrandon Naidu
lol thoguht so

a few seconds agoJackson Zheng
huge overbet

Brandon Naidu
i know
he sounds fishy
hahah so barreling is best huh, aight cool thanks bro

about a minute agoJackson Zheng
standard results orientation
ya i think so np

So yeah confirmed my line is fine and panickypoker please dont give me advise anymore lol
 

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