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flopped a straight

 
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flopped a straight - Wed Jul 27, 2011, 01:02 AM
(#1)
randomdude85's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
BronzeStar
hey all, I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this hand. it's not from pokerstars because I can't play on PS anymore so I don't have the hand replayer option available

this was early in the tournament, blinds were at 15/30
I was in MP3
UTG limped in
I had 8s 6c
buttone limps
SB completes
BB checks
pot is at 150

flop comes out 7h 5d 9d

SB checks, BB makes a bet of 112
UTG limper folds,

I raise it to 560 knowing I had the straight. I did notice the flush draw which is why I raised high, to make anyone drawing pay for their draw.
Button reraises all in up to 1870

SB folds, as does the BB

I am left to call 840 and at this point I knew the button was the one on the flush draw. I really felt like I put myself in a bad spot with this hand, and I decided to call and unfortunately the button hit his diamond on the turn and I was knocked out in 10th which was extremely disappointing because I rarely go out that early. I ran the hand over an odds calculator and before the turn I was about a 62/38 favorite.

Did I play this hand okay? Should I have not gotten involved in the first place with my preflop hand? I've been playing semi connectors a bit more than I used to lately and I only play them from late/middle or late position if it's cheap to call, which is the reason I limped in this situation.

Any advice would be great, thanks!
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 02:13 AM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Just to start, the hand history won't work with the PSO convertor, but there might actually be a convertor for it if the hand history is from a well-known site. Google 'poker hand converter' and you might find something that works. There are a few extra pieces of info that would be helpful here, like the exact stack sizes.

Why You Shouldn't Play Weak Hands

Limping unsuited one-gappers is not a recommended strategy. Your opponents will likely make mistakes by overvaluing their own hands and playing them more than they should. Because of that, the basic strategy is to wait for strong hands (primarily high cards, and especially high pairs), and bet them big. Your opponents will make the mistakes they usually do, but in a bigger pot than normal, and when you win that pot more often than not because your hand was the favourite to win, your stack will usually get bigger than theirs faster. That's the arguement for only playing strong hands, such as high cards, and especially high pairs.

Why You Shouldn't Limp

If there are any decent players at your table who raise your limp, what are you going to do? Will you fold your limp and lose the big blind you put in? They add up. Or will you call and put in even more money as an underdog (which would basically turn you into the bad player who is overplaying his hand)? Also, if you limp strong hands, then you're doing your opponents a favour by keeping the pot small while you're a favourite. So in general, play big pots when you have it, and just fold when you don't.

Your Play on the Flop

Now, having flopped a straight and the statistical favourite to win the hand, you should play as big a pot as you can. Sure, you'll lose about a third of the time that someone gets it in with a flush draw, but the same is true if you get KK in preflop against A2. If you can be that far ahead in every matchup you ever play, you'll be the best poker player in the world. You made the pot big here while you had the best hand. I'm tired, so I might be repeating myself so much that it makes this post sound weird (I can't tell because I get confused when I'm tired), but to sum up your play, it was not so good preflop, but really good postflop.

Now, I'm going to see if I can edit this down and make it sound coherent.

Okay, I've done my best to edit this. But I'm still tired so it's still kind of a ramble.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Wed Jul 27, 2011 at 04:07 AM..
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 03:09 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomdude85 View Post
hey all, I was wondering if I could get some feedback on this hand. it's not from pokerstars because I can't play on PS anymore so I don't have the hand replayer option available

this was early in the tournament, blinds were at 15/30
I was in MP3
UTG limped in
I had 8s 6c
buttone limps
SB completes
BB checks
pot is at 150

flop comes out 7h 5d 9d

SB checks, BB makes a bet of 112
UTG limper folds,

I raise it to 560 knowing I had the straight. I did notice the flush draw which is why I raised high, to make anyone drawing pay for their draw.
Button reraises all in up to 1870

SB folds, as does the BB

I am left to call 840 and at this point I knew the button was the one on the flush draw. I really felt like I put myself in a bad spot with this hand, and I decided to call and unfortunately the button hit his diamond on the turn and I was knocked out in 10th which was extremely disappointing because I rarely go out that early. I ran the hand over an odds calculator and before the turn I was about a 62/38 favorite.

Did I play this hand okay? Should I have not gotten involved in the first place with my preflop hand? I've been playing semi connectors a bit more than I used to lately and I only play them from late/middle or late position if it's cheap to call, which is the reason I limped in this situation.

Any advice would be great, thanks!
Start stack sizes? Field size? SNG/MTT?

I am gunna assume they were right aorund 1500 or so for this, but that does tend to have a bearing on things for future reference.

Also, I will assume this is an MTT, because in a single table SNG (or 18 to 27 man SNG), playing 86o from mp this early on is far too loose in nearly ALL circumstances. If it was an SNG, read up on play strategies for those events a bit, because it is a pretty universal standard to play those very TIGHTLY early on...

Ok...

Question #1 (multi-part):
What was your table dynamic like so far?
Specifically, were a lot of pots going multi-way limp to the flop?
What was the post flop betting tendencies in play?
Were there any players who would "go to the wall" on draws, or single pair hands regardless of kicker strength?

These questions all "want" an answer from your observations, since a hand like 86o will tend to flop a 2 pair+ hand, or even a strong DRAW (8 outs+), less than around 20% to 25% of the time.

Being in MP, you not only must worry immediately about a raise BEHIND you pricing out out of your limp, but you also must be quite "careful" if you flop the "most likely" hit for your hand; any 1 pair holding.

Speculating into this pot for even a single "small" BB amount does not SEEM like much, but if you do flop an ooe straight draw, the fact you are out of position can easily cost you a LOT MORE than that single limped BB. If you flop a top pair 8, how likely are you to take it down with 1 or 2 barrels?

Just because your table "loves da limps" does NOT mean you should follow suit without decently solid reads that you can effectively continue on your lesser hits, or get paid on your big hits. These sorts of spec plays are a lot better when made in LP, since you will tend to have max info on which to base your subsequent decisions.

If you lack the reads that early, or if your poker "skill set" is not developed enough to be able to have the reads at all, you are much better served by playing far tighter, and not peculating with hands like 86o at all.

Question #2 (also multi-part):
What hand range will BB tend to lead in this spot?
What amounts will he tend to call?
How much is he willing to invest in a "chase" of a good draw?
What are the play tendencies of those left to act behind you (the Button)?

Flopping "da noots" is a wonderful thing.
About the only thought which should be running through your mind is, "how can I get the MOST into the pot NOW!"
If you CAN get your entire stack in now, awesome!

Versus a flopped set, you are roughly 65/35.
Versus a 2 pair hand, you are roughly 81/19.
Versus a nut flush draw, with a 6 or 8 kicker, you are roughly 60/40.
Any of these are a worthwhile "race" for you to take in this spot.
Anything else is much WORSE for a villain in this spot...

(Note: the ONLY situation which is highly un-favorable to you here would be 86d. In that spot you are on the wrong side of a "free roll", and can only chop the pot or LOSE. That single hand, nor any "weak" free roll of a single d in an 86 hand, is not enough "threat" to worry about. If it happens, it happens. Also...your overall equity is bang on at 62/38 for this RANGE, although it does not account for worse in the Villain's call standard. So at WORST you are 62/38...nice use of a calc for self-review!)

In most cases though, you are not going to be able to get 50BB+ start stacks to launch off for you in a pot with only a bit under 9BB in it; so that means you will likely have to get your max value across multiple streets. This is why it is important to know how "married" to draws a villain will be; you WANT to get 'em all in now if you can, but if not you do NOT want to dry up your "value" by betting them OFF draws...see?

The operative idea you should have whenever you hold a very very strong hand (or think you are "good") is to bet to INVITE a call, but DENY proper drawing odds. For you here, this means your MAXIMUM "suck out threat" is a 60/40 shot by the river. Since BB Villain has shown some "interest" in taking this pot, and since you hold a hand which you KNOW is "best", all you gotta do is bet enough to deny odds for him to spike the "worst case" draw against you in 1 card. This means:

Nut flush draw (with a 6 or 8 kicker) has 9 x d for a "win", and 2 x 8's or 6's (not both) for a chop.
That is 11 "wins" for the villain, divided by 47 "unknown cards" for him, or a 23.4% chance to spike the TURN.
So long as you "deny" him pot odds of 3 to 1, you are making a "correct" bet.
This means...

The pot is 262 when it gets to you.
BB Villain has in 112 of that.
All your raise "needs" to be for proper "math" play is a raise of around 132 (244 total to go)...
(Note: The reason your raise can be so small and deny odds is because you get another chance to bet the turn in many cases.)

Now..

You might be thinking at this point: "Wait a second....first this guy is telling me to get all my chips in if I can, but now he seems to be implying my bet of 560, which got a LOT of my chips in, was too BIG! WTF!" Let me explain...

Betting theory calls for you to enact 2 "parts"...deny odds, AND invite a call.
As long as you bet 132+, you are denying odds.
The more above this "denial amount" you bet, the LESS "inviting" it is for an opponent to call...right?

That is why I have an issue with your statement: "I did notice the flush draw which is why I bet so high, to make anyone drawing pay for their draw".

Good thinking there, but 132 is "enough" to make them "pay" an incorrect price for their draw.
Betting 560 is much more likely to make them "wake up" to the fact they will NOT get good draw odds, thus inducing a FOLD.
When you hold the nuts, do you want an opponent paying you off, or folding because you bet so strongly they had no choice?
Your goal should be to make your opponents do the WRONG thing against you...bet too big and you "force" draws into the right choice; a fold...see?


I'll be honest, there are VERY FEW circumstances where I am going to raise on your hand as small as 244 to go, but the REASON I'd raise more is because I seriously think the BB will CALL more than that amount, NOT to drive them out of the pot because there is (maybe) a 23.4% max chance they hit the turn to suck out. If they do NOT hit that turn hard (paired board or a 3rd flush card) I am definately betting again.

(NOTE: About the only reason I'd raise as small as 244 to go is if I think the BTN behind me, or the BB lead bettor, is uber-aggro and an "attacking" type who would view that tiny bet as "weak", and re-raise. You do not put out info to say you have that read though, so your decisions probably were NOT based on that possibility.)

So if making it 244 to go is too "little" in most spots (because BB or BTN will call MORE), and 560 is too much in most spots (because it will tend to make even
strong draws wake up and fold), how do we arrive at a "good" bet size? That's where READS come in! But we do not always have those reads...

If you lack reads that tell you how your opponents may act toward your specific bet sizes, a good "rule of thumb" when you hold a very strong hand, but one with potential draw cards out there, is to raise anywhere from 1.5 times to 2.5 times the lead bet amount (280 to 392 max to go).

The reason why this is a good range in which to keep your bet sizing on a "deep stack" is that sometimes your opponents will make "mistakes" by calling, and still catch lucky. If you started with 1500, then made it 300 to go on this flopped nut hand, you are "only" 330 into the pot or a tiny bit over 20% of your stack in. This leaves you room to MAYBE check/fold if a villain jams, and it also tends to keep the pot somewhat smaller if you perhaps see a threat card and contemplate check/calls.

Also, if you make it 300 to go on the flop, and get even 1 caller, the pot is built enough so that if a threat card does NOT come, you can pretty easily commit to the pot if you feel there is a big calling station who will not let go. A raise to 300 with even a single caller makes a pot take down on the turn of 862, or well over a 50% chip up for a 1500 start stack. That really is a lot better "value" than betting a lot early to chase draws out, and winning just a 262 chip pot, right?

As played though, you DID get what you "want":
The "threat" to draws of your big flop bet was ignored.

The BTN was a bit too much of a poker "moron" to realize that anyone firing 560 of a 1500 stack into a pot is pretty committed, so he was going to HAVE to hit his draw to win, so jamming in on a semi-bluff had almost no chance of working.

You were well ahead when the chips went in.

After that, it was all down to luck...

BUT...

The quality of your decisions in poker are not predicated on the "results".
The fact you "lost" this hand when you were ahead does not mean you did NOT "want" to play for all your chips if you could do so on this flop.
But the fact you got exactly what you "wanted" in terms of value in the pot in this flop does not mean your decisions led you to your desired results.
In fact, your betting decisions will COST you "value" overall, even if it means you see everyone fold and you do NOT get sucked out on.

You want your DECISIONS to be "good" in poker, even if at times those decisions result in losses.
You cannot control when "luck" will happenm either for you or your opponent, but if you put yourself consistently into spots where you will make the most value possible, in the widest range of circumstances as possible, in the long run the "math" will see that you have an increase in your bank roll.

(BTW: If you do not "get" what I'm laying out, I suggest you google "The Fundemental Theorem of Poker", and read the Wikipedia article on it. also, if you do not understand how LOSING to a suck out that you might have gotten to fold, gives you more "value" than "forcing" that fold, I can give you the math...just ask, ok? )

Hope it helps...

Last edited by JDean; Wed Jul 27, 2011 at 03:17 AM..
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 03:11 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
Just to start, the hand history won't work with the PSO convertor, but there might actually be a convertor for it if the hand history is from a well-known site. Google 'poker hand converter' and you might find something that works. There are a few extra pieces of info that would be helpful here, like the exact stack sizes.

Why You Shouldn't Play Weak Hands

Limping unsuited one-gappers is not a recommended strategy. Your opponents will likely make mistakes by overvaluing their own hands and playing them more than they should. Because of that, the basic strategy to wait for strong hands (primarily high cards, and especially high pairs), and bet them big. Your opponents will make the mistakes they usually do, but in a bigger pot than normal, and when you win that pot more often than not because your hand was the favourite to win, your stack will usually get bigger than theirs faster. That's the arguement for only playing strong hands, such as high cards, and especially high pairs.

Why You Shouldn't Limp

If there are any decent players at your table who raise your limp, what are you going to do? Will you fold your limp and lose the big blind you put in? They add up. Or will you call and put in even more money as an underdog (which would basically turn you into the bad player who is overplaying his hand)? Also, if you limp strong hands, then you're doing your opponents a favour by keeping the pot small while you're a favourite. So in general, play big pots when you have it, and just fold when you don't.

Your Play on the Flop

Now, having flopped a straight and the statistical favourite to win the hand, you should play as big a pot as you can. Sure, you'll lose about a third of the time that someone gets it in with a flush draw, but the same is true if you get KK in preflop against A2. If you can be that far ahead in every matchup you ever play, you'll be the best poker player in the world. You made the pot big here while you had the best hand. I'm tired, so I might be repeating myself so much that it makes this post sound weird (I can't tell because I get confused when I'm tired), but to sum up your play, it was not so good preflop, but really good postflop.

Now, I'm going to see if I can edit this down and make it sound coherent.

Okay, I've done my best to edit this. But I'm still tired so it's still kind of a ramble.
NO WAY this is un-clear Panicky...great post.

+1000, I could not agree more.

Well done.

Last edited by JDean; Wed Jul 27, 2011 at 03:21 AM..
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 04:09 AM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
lol, maybe my posts are smarter when I'm tired. I did actually take ten minutes to post-produce, though. Ergo the nifty titles.
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 03:56 PM
(#6)
randomdude85's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
BronzeStar
hey guys,

thanks for responding!

first off, Jdean, I tried Googling for poker hand converter real quick but didn't find anything that supports where I am currently playing. I'll look again later on when I have some more time. I am currently playing on Carbon Poker, which does keep your hand history for up to 7 days I believe, but it doesn't offer a hand replayer.

Thanks for the advice. I actually am usually a really tight player. It's just recently I've been opening up my hand range a bit by adding connectors and one gappers (depending on position). I did realize that playing 86 off probably wasn't the best idea in this spot, especially so early in this game. By the way, this was a 10-man SNG, $2 buy in (+rake which I can't remember off the top of my head). I had limped because after I think 2 or 3 orbits there really wasn't much raising going on and at the time I thought 86 could be a speculative hand I could play, and if I got nothing on the flop, I could of easily thrown the hand away.
Both of your replies were very helpful.
PanickyPoker, I will check out The Fundemental Theorem of Poker article. I think I have come across it before but didn't really grasp the info right away. I do get a bit what you meant how losing to a suck out that you might have gotten to fold, gives you more "value" than "forcing" that fold. That's one part of my game I need to work on. I tend to play pretty scared actually, I guess my style is TAG-passive, which I am also trying to work on as well.
Thanks for helping me out. For the next time I will try and find a hand re-player to make it easier, I'm sure I'll keep coming back for more help!
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 04:09 PM
(#7)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
yeah i have not figured out how to covert carbons either... all you get is that damn cartoon and if it is a carbon tourney chances are its a turbo with rebuys and add ons, since that makes up about 90% of their games
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 04:15 PM
(#8)
randomdude85's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
BronzeStar
yea, I've played in a few of those but I stick to the regular SNGs. This particular hand I believe was from a regular SNG, it wasn't a turbo
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 04:25 PM
(#9)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
theres like no information in your hand bro......

if i could pick up on anything id say no more limping trash in tournies, 8-6 belongs in the fold category

second imo the raise sizing could use some adjusting, maybe something like 300-350...............in this case you got the guy to stack off so well done but once you start playing higher buy ins ect you will imo need to be betting smaller to induce and get value from worse hands, its pretty rare that someones going to 3 bet shove on you when you got the stone cold nuts but yeah good luck for future games
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 05:29 PM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
86 can be a playable hand under very special circumstances (conditions that are very hard to find in micro-stakes games). It's pretty advanced to be able to play it profitably, and even the best players in the world probably have trouble with it when they limp. That's because most of the time they play it, they ingeniously get their opponents to fold postflop. The hand strength therefore doesn't always matter, but the hand must be played aggressively in order to accomplish the folds. You also need to play it against very specific player types who are pretty rare in micro-stakes games, such as the player who does not overplay his hands and is very willing to fold.

If you want to play speculative hands, try to only do it on the button (because that's where most of your profits from playing speculative hands will come from), try to do it aggressively, and if you must pick a hand as weak as 86, at least wait for a suited 86, because it has more equity since it can make a flush.
 
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Wed Jul 27, 2011, 05:30 PM
(#11)
randomdude85's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 16
BronzeStar
hey thanks for the advice. yea I realize it wasn't a good hand and I don't plan on playing it again
 

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