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Set mining with TT OOP (NLHE 2/5c fullring)

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Set mining with TT OOP (NLHE 2/5c fullring) - Thu Jul 28, 2011, 08:02 AM
(#1)
SpaceHiker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
BronzeStar
Hi,
I just read you would like to see more hands here.
So here is one.
I tried to follow TrumpinJoes instructions.

(WARNING: it will be long, but I prefer to post 1 detailed hand than bunch of short stories
Or you can just watch the replayer, and let me know if you read the rest as well.)

Looking forward to your comments. I prefer those negative. If you say I did everything right, its a bad news, because I have nothing to improve. But positive are welcome too.
How would you play that hand yourself ?

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Players statistics I used in my decision process (sample size 50-100 hands / 1k for me).

------------------VPIP---PFR----- AGGF--FAGG%------WTSD-WWSF

SpaceHiker--- 22----17--------- 4.3-----35---------------21-----41

Kafkatos-------10-----10----------4.0-----40--------------40----- 20--------(8/8 MP)

xMICROSx-------8------4----------1.7-----33--------------21----- 43

xBe--tle---------18------4----------1.0------21-------------50------60

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Kafkatos
TAG (REG) Had met him before. Hard to play against.
He started this session by playing for stack with AK after he did not hit.
Floated flop and barreled T and R bluffing everything possible.
(Unfortunately his opponent improved his air and 3 outs to runner runner full house.)
Willing to get stacked with over pair AA on flop (head ups at full ring table).

xMICROSx (Probably tight passive, not much info on him)

xBe--tle (TAG, maybe passive, when he bets more he has 2 pair plus)

My perceived image
I mostly try to play TAG (sometimes passive though). But when the table becomes too tight, I start to play LAG-maniac for a few orbits until the people adjust and start to 3-bet too often.
(As long as all the table folds 2 out of 3 times to 2.5x PFR its pretty profitable. I am exaggerating lol.)

Like 20-5 mins before this hand I did right that. I played like 45/40 opening like 60 percent UO pots. I also had got caught 3 barreling with complete air few times earlier at the session. The good hands usually did not get to showdown.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here we go :|



(I refer the players by position in following text, EP-early, MP-midle, CO- cut off)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PREFLOP

EP was probably set mining with small pocket pair
MP as I know this player this bet size from here was either AK or JJ+. So most probably JJ+.
CO AK, AQs or 22-KK. So most probably pocket pair. (I estimated its JJ+)

I got TT out of position.

3BET / SQUEEZE
Out of position with my current image did not give any sense to me.
MP would not fold JJ+, CO maybe if MP calls. I would risk that MP 4-bets with KK+ (3x that is what he does) and I would not have implied odds for set mining anymore and would have to fold.
I would not have much chance to outplay MP post flop if had not hit the set. (I would need A and no JQK on flop, estimate they do not have A, MP is not folding KK to a single barrel and its not guaranteed he believes me the A. ) And there were even much worse scenarios.

FOLD
Seemed to be the best option for me there for a while. Mostly because I was out of position and I might have a problem to extract value even if I would have hit the set and any J Q K A would be a scary card either for me or my opponents.

CALL
But it was only 20 cents to call and I had good implied odds. And after my unsuccessful "low ball" I needed some recovery. MP is an aggressive player, so there was a chance to get something out of him even OOP (He does not have the habit to fold to my check raises on flop lol).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FLOP

Pretty dry. No draws. Safe to slow play the set.

BET
Its multiway pot. If I bet, many players will read it as a strong hand and it might slow down the action. MP might raise, but he is a bit more careful in multiway pots and his raise could push CO away.
Well I have only 2 outs they all 3 together still can have some. But I am not here to collect few cents. That was not my intention when I called preflop. So I do not want to bet to protect the hand and make them fold.

CHECK
Seems the best for me. After my "donk" play it will look like that my crap missed again as always and I am out of the fight. I expect over pairs will put money in (I am quite sure there is at least 1). I rely on MP mostly. So I check.

EP check (OK he did not hit probably)
MP checks - crap, I did a mistake . He is slow playing too (or missed with AK). They will get free card now and I will get some free scary card as a bonus.
CO bets 1/2 size of the pot. OK I got lucky again. First over pair (JJ+) confirmed.

I CALL
Expecting MP to raise his over pair here. I still do not want to present strong hand at this point.

EP folds, that is good, less outs to worry about

MP raises a lot (KK+ confirmed) and is almost pot commited
CO calls and is pot commited

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OK what to do now ?
And I have to make the decision and action as fast as possible. Before the clock starts running.

CALL
And continue slow play. That was what I planned to do. But now that the pot is big enough, I do not like this idea so much.
First it will give them free card. Well they have 4 outs.
But any A K Q J is a scary card either for me or for them.
(Maybe other cards too after my donk play, but I did not think about it in such depth at that moment)
What shall I do if any of these come. I am OOP and will have to bet whatever happens and after call raise because I will be pot committed. Am I comfortable with this and do I want to put myself in that spot. NO.
I started the session with 6 dollars, now I have 15 which is 10% of my effective bankroll (small part of my overall bankroll I currently work with and apply BR management on). I really do not want suck out.

MINRAISE
No cheap suck outs :|.

SHIP IT IN
I have not shown any strength until now.
MP might call. I tried to represent set in a similar situation before and he called with AA and had my KK beat. But he knows I am not going to do this with complete air and still has CO behind.
CO I am quite sure he calls if MP folds (he is pot committed and likes to bring his hands to showdown). And he does not know me and mostly could see my donk play. He could even think I am bluffing. (Or put me on something like J-AT, but I did not have time to consider this at the moment.)

So I shove all my 15$ stack to make it look like like I do not want a call.

MP thinks for a while and folds.

CO thinks a bit longer but finally hits the CALL button

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess you can imagine what was the result.
But if I get at least 2 reactions to my post and 2 poll votes, I am going to post the result later on as a bonus.

Thanks
Space

Last edited by SpaceHiker; Thu Jul 28, 2011 at 09:20 AM.. Reason: formating text
 
Old
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 08:55 AM
(#2)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
The way youv posted this hand i just don't really understand what it is your after? analysis wise........

You were talking about folding 10s pre as an option? well imo i think we both know that your never folding 10s there like ever given implied odds as u stated....

well you played the hand well disregarding results, i personally don't see a problem with min raising there........pretty hard for villains to suckout given that your perceived ranges of villain are as above JJ+AQ+, Over card hands ect hands that would maybe peel one off im sure you stack em either way if you were right especially on that turn card :P

The info given seems well thought about but i seem to get lost in all the diferent parts of the analysis

for me i think villain who stacks off range is A10,22,55,J10,Q10,K10.......

bt yeh bleh im tireDskeez :P

NH
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 10:13 AM
(#3)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Interesting hand - so interesting to get to hear your thoughts as well!!

I don't really have anything too analysis heavy or anything. Just some things that caught my attention:

1) The CO's bet/calls post-flop - they have a VPIP of 8%, then called a 5xbb raise against a tight player, which would seem to indicate a strong hand. Then post-flop, they only raised half a pot after it was checked to them. Then they called a huge check-raise overbet from MP - didn't reraise, didn't fold. And they've got SpaceHiker who's still in the pot, who could have missed the flop or could be slowplaying. Then SpaceHiker went and jammed it - and he called off the rest of his stack. Would somebody with KK ever have a reason to half-bet like that from the cut-off - are they not worried somebody might have AK and draw out if they let them. Or are they worried that somebody already has AA or better, and they're being cautious? Or do they have the AT and can't tell where they stand, so they don't want to give it up? Or do they have the 55 and think they might be well ahead?

2) The MP's check/overbet/fold post-flop - wouldn't that be great if they had the KK and folded! Were they hoping for a fold or a call with that? Anything but a reraise I guess

3) The decision to shove to try and thwart a suckout versus continuing the slowplay - that's a tough one.

So well played - I hope the set held up on the river!
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 10:34 AM
(#4)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Nice hand Space Hiker and the correct play but I have this awful sinking feeling of K's for the cut off. I hope that I am wrong and that he did catch one of his two outs on the turn.

TC
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 11:24 AM
(#5)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,844
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
If you knew that most of the opps were playing passive, then I'd have made a bet on the flop to start with (since there is a good chance of them checking behind unless they hit a set too). You got lucky that the CO started the betting, which did workout for you, but if they're passive, they could easily check too... and with top set, you want to be building a pot.

When the CO bets, like your initial call, to conceal your hand and after the MP raises and is called by the CO, love the shove.
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:22 PM
(#6)
SpaceHiker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
The way youv posted this hand i just don't really understand what it is your after? analysis wise........

You were talking about folding 10s pre as an option? well imo i think we both know that your never folding 10s there like ever given implied odds as u stated....

well you played the hand well disregarding results, i personally don't see a problem with min raising there........pretty hard for villains to suckout given that your perceived ranges of villain are as above JJ+AQ+, Over card hands ect hands that would maybe peel one off im sure you stack em either way if you were right especially on that turn card :P

The info given seems well thought about but i seem to get lost in all the diferent parts of the analysis

for me i think villain who stacks off range is A10,22,55,J10,Q10,K10.......

bt yeh bleh im tireDskeez :P

NH
Your answer is exactly what I was looking for.

Yes you are right. FOLDING preflop was not an option here. But I am not so experienced to do these things automatically. (Like a PRO playing 25 tables, who just needs like 0.1s to see the preflop action when the window pops up and another 0.1s to hit the call button LOL.)
When there are more options I like to consider all. Do not know why folding was the first one. Probably bad habits from the PSO league LOL.

Well the hand had already passed the commitment threshold. The "minraise" was 6 dollars in fact here and I think it would show more strength than the shove. So they might both fold which I did not want. or just call and on the turn I would have to put the rest in even in situation where I know MP has me beat 50% of the time. Some poker players say that small winning is better than big loss and I was more comfortable with this line here..
But you are probably right that raise might be more profitable here in the long run.

I will post the result when the pole finishes.

Thanks again
Space
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 06:05 PM
(#7)
SpaceHiker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Interesting hand - so interesting to get to hear your thoughts as well!!

I don't really have anything too analysis heavy or anything. Just some things that caught my attention:

1) The CO's bet/calls post-flop - they have a VPIP of 8%, then called a 5xbb raise against a tight player, which would seem to indicate a strong hand. Then post-flop, they only raised half a pot after it was checked to them. Then they called a huge check-raise overbet from MP - didn't reraise, didn't fold. And they've got SpaceHiker who's still in the pot, who could have missed the flop or could be slowplaying. Then SpaceHiker went and jammed it - and he called off the rest of his stack. Would somebody with KK ever have a reason to half-bet like that from the cut-off - are they not worried somebody might have AK and draw out if they let them. Or are they worried that somebody already has AA or better, and they're being cautious? Or do they have the AT and can't tell where they stand, so they don't want to give it up? Or do they have the 55 and think they might be well ahead?

2) The MP's check/overbet/fold post-flop - wouldn't that be great if they had the KK and folded! Were they hoping for a fold or a call with that? Anything but a reraise I guess

3) The decision to shove to try and thwart a suckout versus continuing the slowplay - that's a tough one.



So well played - I hope the set held up on the river!

1) I do not know. He probably has a decent hand and 2 opponents who bluff with high frequency.
He bets half of the pot to get some info. EP folds, "The fish" just calls, which he interprets as a weak hand or a draw. The one who is able to invest all his stack in a pure bluff raises. He probably thinks he still might have the best hand (hard to fold) and we might give up and let him see cheap show down (that is common scenario at this stake level) so he calls and makes himself pot committed.
Then I shove and MP folds. I think from his short observation on me, he thinks, I even do not know what slow playing is, so is not worried about it. So calls in a situation that is usually profitable against players with my image from his perspective.

2) I think he was expecting me to fold. I had high fold frequency against him at the previous session. But it was just because I usually did not hit anything and playing air against aggressive opponent is not my cup of tea . Not sure why he folded to my shove this time, either he believed me the set this time, but most probably he was afraid of the CO behind him too.

Thanks
Space
 
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:) thanks - Thu Jul 28, 2011, 06:16 PM
(#8)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpaceHiker View Post
Your answer is exactly what I was looking for.

Yes you are right. FOLDING preflop was not an option here. But I am not so experienced to do these things automatically. (Like a PRO playing 25 tables, who just needs like 0.1s to see the preflop action when the window pops up and another 0.1s to hit the call button LOL.)
When there are more options I like to consider all. Do not know why folding was the first one. Probably bad habits from the PSO league LOL.

Well the hand had already passed the commitment threshold. The "minraise" was 6 dollars in fact here and I think it would show more strength than the shove. So they might both fold which I did not want. or just call and on the turn I would have to put the rest in even in situation where I know MP has me beat 50% of the time. Some poker players say that small winning is better than big loss and I was more comfortable with this line here..
But you are probably right that raise might be more profitable here in the long run.

I will post the result when the pole finishes.



Thanks again
Space



haha yeah btw thats exactly what i was thinkin about when i was reading the hand, weather min raising looked strong or not 2 these guys.....however IMO shoving for reasons that u gave make perfect sense imo, you tend to get these sort of spots a ton playing short handed cash games, always a real annoying issue how to extract most value OOP sighhh everyones most issue like ever hahah especially when you see what they have after value betting knowing they woulda coulda a shove on 4th street lol :P

anyhows yeh looking forward to seeing wat happend, no way villain had KK :P

goodluck
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 06:30 PM
(#9)
SpaceHiker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
If you knew that most of the opps were playing passive, then I'd have made a bet on the flop to start with (since there is a good chance of them checking behind unless they hit a set too). You got lucky that the CO started the betting, which did workout for you, but if they're passive, they could easily check too... and with top set, you want to be building a pot.

When the CO bets, like your initial call, to conceal your hand and after the MP raises and is called by the CO, love the shove.
Yes you are right. I based my play on the hope, that if there are 3 players behind, someone will bet. Well, I estimated the aggressive MP would bet for sure, but did not think about the possibility that he might be slow playing the dry board as well and its much less likely those passive players would lead in a multiway pot..I got really lucky here. I am quite sure, if I had bet those 50 cents myself he MP would have raised right away. Not sure what the CO action would be after though.

When CO bets, in that case I was pretty sure MP is neither folding an overpair nor just calling (as he needs to get some info,which he did not when I just called) and I wanted to give CO the chance to call behind, which was less likely if he was facing more action in front of him.

Thanks
Space
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 06:34 PM
(#10)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
lol im telling you this PSO was supposed to help players and their game but your right it does the complete opposite if not nothing sigh
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 08:23 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Preflop call is standard, the hand has way too much value to fold and 3 betting oop would be a pretty serious mistake.

On the flop I think the idea of checking to the raiser with him being aggressive and potentially bluff happy is ok, BUT with your image I would lead out smallish (half the pot seems like a good number). You'll get calls by AK that doesn't believe you, and overpairs will at least call and maybe raise. And the preflop raiser may raise you for value with overpairs or as a bluff... your donk bet with your LAG image looks like a weak bluff or marginal 1 pair hand.

I don't understand MP's check-raise, it seems terrible with an overpair. The cut off is passive, he can't count on the cut off to bet for him. If the cut off usually only bets big hands, then his range is polarized to big hands and air that's taking a one time stab at it. The c-r by him was a steal to try and pick up the pot I expect, and although it doesn't make sense it's probably a high % steal at this limit.

Once it comes back to you I like the jam at this point, at least the cut off is calling, he would seem to have an underset or an overpair. Might as well get him in right now. Flatting again in this spot looks so strong anyway, shoving looks weaker actually with your image.

FYI, your line turns your hand face up to more experienced players. It's fine at this level, but check-flat-back raise jam pretty much screams set and is going to make you readable when you move up. The donk out line will work much better to disguise your hand strength as that's often done with draws (none in this case), weak 1 pair hands, or bluffs.
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 08:24 PM
(#12)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
lol im telling you this PSO was supposed to help players and their game but your right it does the complete opposite if not nothing sigh
IDK where you're going with this, but feel free to leave if you're not happy. No one's locking the door on you.
 
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Fri Jul 29, 2011, 09:18 PM
(#13)
SpaceHiker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
lol im telling you this PSO was supposed to help players and their game but your right it does the complete opposite if not nothing sigh
I have never said anything like this. PSO is where I have learned all I know about the game now.

All I said was:
When there are more options I like to consider all. Do not know why folding was the first one. Probably bad habits from the PSO league LOL.
That is completely something else and was not meant so seriously.
I usually would not have implied odds for set mining at such spot in the league and TT usually would not be enough against 2 tight players.
 
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BUMP - Sat Jul 30, 2011, 12:24 AM
(#14)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
So did your opp have kings?? I'm dying of curiousity here!! Who won the hand??
 
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Sat Jul 30, 2011, 12:41 AM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Pre Flop:

The $10 kafkatosis has, plus your reads that he will barrel hard, plus stack off big over pairs, makes his stack alone just about good enough implied odds for me to be willing to play "no set no bet" with TT from the SB. Add in xBe, who may pretty quickly feel committed for his smaller stack, and it is a definate I am AT LEAST flatting in here.
BB Micro coming along is simply "gravy" at that point.

I think your thoughts aobut the squeeze play as an option here are pretty solid. If Kafkatosis were a LAG player per your read, TT might be "enough" to attempt a squeeze, but with both those calling in being labelled as TAG by you, the risk is probably not worth the try. This is especially true too since only the BB is a possible raiser behind you, so a limp along does not REALLY carry excessive "risk" you will be raised out here.

Folding is a pretty silly option when you are this deep, and are facing deep stacks as well.
If 23c means THAT much to you, then play lower.

Flop:

Really dry board.
You've hit "gin", and hold the nut hand.
Per your reads, A3/A4/35/46 all have very little chance of being here.
All you have to be concerned with is thinking aobut how best to get money into this pot.

I do not see anything wrong at all in checking with your range reads.
Kafkatosis is probably aggro enough to C-Bet even AK/AQ misses after your check at the very least, so you are not going to "lose" value form a check all that often.
CO is on such a tight range per your read that he almost CERTAINLY will have something worth betting here.

By the same token, you really do NOT want a "scary" card to dry up your action.
If you have the villains on big pp, then an A coming COULD melt that action.

I think it is really pretty much 6 of 1/half a dozen of the other for you here, EXCEPT for your "sometimes LAG" image.
If you've just come off a string of LAG-gy plays, a donk lead here may be perceived as a continuation of that play style.
If you;ve been "quiet" for a while before this, then I think a check is fine; villains stand to have enough value to bet for you per your reads.

When you do elect to check/call the opener, you did the "right" thing (in my opinion) when the C/R by kafkatosis was triggered AND when xBe called that C/R.
At that point, both palyers have shown they have enough "faith" their hands are good that they would be willing to "go for it"; one of 'em might not REALLY be ready to do so, but it is almost certain both are just posturing in this pot. That means when it comes back to you, and you are on the nuts, get 'em in...
xBe did call off his stack when you held the nuts, and he was drawing pretty thinly (no matter what he held).

Everything after that is totally moot.
Luck will happen and he sucks out, or it won't, and you win.
It does not chang in the least the validity of your decision to get 'em in on the nuts.
 
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Result - Tue Aug 02, 2011, 03:08 AM
(#16)
SpaceHiker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
BronzeStar
Hi, thanks for all the comments and advise.
Here is the result of the hand, as I promissed.



My read on CO was correct, would like to know what hand MP folded.
Space

Last edited by SpaceHiker; Tue Aug 02, 2011 at 03:12 AM..
 

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