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6 Max Spots, Aggression 101

 
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6 Max Spots, Aggression 101 - Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:02 PM
(#1)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Hay guys got a few more lil hands i would like to share with you...... they arn't that much into depth
These hands i picked my self from the long list hand history LOL it was a mission.........i was just looking for hands that would show some basic concepts as to how short handed tournys late game-mid play out....

I understand alot of my analysis will say things like "just shove hes only got this much blah blah or just shove you have "that hand" so here i thought i would back my words up a lil and post a couple hands in similar "shove" situations

Please i am open to critisism if you feel that i could use some adjusting to what i am doin

Hand #1, When and Why to 3 bet OOP

Here i have QJ in the big blind and we are playing 5 handed........Now we all know its not the greatest starting hand......however players at this level generally play a ABC tight game and buttons tend to have a much wider opening range than most.........i 3 bet here in order to firstly

1. Isolate the potential dead money
2. Take control of the pot
3. Potentially rep stronger holdings than QJ+
4. Given my hand it becomes a lil more unlikeley for villain to hold hands such as KQ,AQ,QQ, JJ,AJ,KJ,.......in return i am repping these hands and will generally take down alot of flops if i do get called in position...........Not saying that villain will never have these hands but you know what i mean
5.I felt that my edge was clear, that i was better than this player (that IS a reason to play OOP)

all in all this is a fairly standard spot



Hand # 2 When to keep barreling

Here i have A-9 offsuit and standard open minraise from UTG 6 handed the table i am on has started to defend their blinds liberally after seeing a couple big bluffs
.......
It is folded round to small blind who calls and we take a flop........Now at this point in the hand i already rep a stronger holding than villains perceived range, and by c betting the K-7-3 board we here are repping good K's but villain floats one off......i assume he had planed on peeling one off and MAYBE barreling the turn with a 4-5,6-5 type of hand but in this case a J hits the turn and hits a TON of my perceived value range here is mr range to villain : J10,QJ,KJ,AJ,AK,KQ,AQ, 33,77,88,99,1010,JJ,KK,AA,QQ.........(i did open UTG, and my image lets me do this playing tight) imo its insignificant for villain to think that i dont have a K at this point because villains perceived range dosn't alter at all once he checks back the turn hes lost in the hand imo even when he has a K, considering no 3 bet pre our perceived range of villain is wide : 45,56,64,7X,3X,A highs, KX-KQ and small pairs......there we see that only a teeny portion of this range could possibly continue in the hand and given that we continue to rep well and fire a turn barrel sticking with our read............




Hand #3 Why,When and Who to Shove

Here is a fairly standard hand, this is 2 away from the final table and play has tightened up a fair amount, imo when you feel players are tightening up near the bubble just open up your range and step up the aggression, not so much that you lose your head, but given stack sizes open more hands, shove alot more blind vs blind.......

Here was the case, it gets folded round to me in small blind i have a healthy stack..........big blind is fairly short about 12-13BB

Options:

Raise: Min raise and leave room to fold if villain was to shove, gifting him more chips
Fold: Gifting villain more chips
Call: Giving villiain the oppurtunity to shove and steal and giving him a chance to c a flop
Shove: Shove and steal his blind a vast majority of the time, the times you do get called your at worst 3-1 and most of the time your 60/40 anyways.......Also more importantly potentially booting another player from the tourny increasing your way in the money ladder

When i talk about options here above im obviously reffering to a extremeley wide range of hands you would have here not just Q6........

So here i elect to shove given reasons above




Hand #4 AK-AQ 20 odd blinds

Ive noticed in the PSO threads that people are finding a hard time what to do with AQ/AK given wierd 15-25 blind stacks to opens UTG ect........

Here on the Final table i had just lost a big pot a couple hands before and have been playing super aggro up til now.........I get AK on the button 5 handed and cuttoff opens the hand, now i have roughly 15BB i think.......

Options:

1. Call and take a flop in position only to hit like a 1/3 of the time

2. 3 Bet and shove a flop, or get it in vs his 4 bet........3 betting here imo given stack sizes and FT i think illustrates ur hand too much to ur opponent so depending weather he is good or not you may wanna think about it

3.Fold LOL okay lets not be silly

4. Shove, shoving 20-25 blinds with strong holdings imo isnt a bad idea at all...........these days generally people are starting to reship very very light and it HAS affected SOME players calling ranges..........in these spots i like to get it all in potentially doubling up/ winning all the dead monies without having to risk being shortstacked by a mistake or a bad flop..........You may find it much of a big shove i however beleive it is standard.....then again it is all image dependent..........I highly recomend also for SNG (referreing amount of BB reshoved 15-25ish is fine imo with strong holdings)

I decide to reship here villains perceived range of us can definantly widen up seeing as he has seen how aggro we have been and could possibly expect us to be tilting a little..........






Well happy to give tips if wanted, please again feel free to critique any of the hands above i am open to critisms But pretty much just here to help

oku_ha_fools (sorry about spelling errors or grammar haha)

Last edited by Oku_Ha_FooLs; Thu Jul 28, 2011 at 05:19 PM.. Reason: Fixed
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:13 PM
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it'll be alot easier if you put 1 hand per thread in the future, unless they are back-to-back hands in a tourney.
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:18 PM
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last hand is the Q6 again, not AK
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:18 PM
(#4)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
I just picked hands that i thoguht would be relevant to PSO players and hands that they usually post about, and pointing out spots/lines that players should be making more often ect........
 
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Fixed - Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:20 PM
(#5)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
last hand is the Q6 again, not AK

Cheers just fixed that
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:22 PM
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hand 1 is a std re-steal

hand 2, that's really, really loose from UTG (will lose you a ton more than it'll help in any of the PSO games... which I know this isn't from since is 6-handed). I think your range on the opp for this one is narrower than what it really is (you're throwing out too many better hands, that if you're being aggro with... they'll flat to hide their hand strength). Your way can work against an opp with no reads, but once someone gets a read on you, they'll take advantage of it and make you pay them off when they hit a piece of the board. I do, however like seeing the 2nd barrel on the turn, if you think the opp is playing weak.

hand 3 is a std steal against a short-stack. You're either getting the blinds, or you're doubling the BB.

hand 4: is a repeat of hand 3..... did you post the wrong one?????
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
I just picked hands that i thoguht would be relevant to PSO players and hands that they usually post about, and pointing out spots/lines that players should be making more often ect........
FYI - alot of these lines are great for cash games...... but with the point structure for the PSO league... will get you into more trouble, than you'll gain from them. Also, they won't always work as good from early position at a full table... but will in a 6-max game, since there are less players and less cards out there.
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:27 PM
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the 4th hand (after corrected), I like the ship with AK as the short-stack. You'll get called by a big stack with a worse hand (or a coin-flip) alot and can double up.
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:32 PM
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trying to steal or re-steal in a PSO game, where alot of players don't know very much about poker... is normally going to be a losing proposition, as those games are a different animal from a normal MTT or a cash game... although I think with the new point system, it's closer to a MTT.
If you do it early in a tourney and get KO'd, then it'll take 2-4 tournies of getting ITM or near ITM... just to get back to a total of even league points. The phrase that comes to mind for me, is "you can't bluff a donk or a station".

However, once you get ITM and are down to the final 3-4 tables of a PSO... totally different story, as by then, most of the luck players are out.
 
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Point taken - Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:54 PM
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Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
trying to steal or re-steal in a PSO game, where alot of players don't know very much about poker... is normally going to be a losing proposition, as those games are a different animal from a normal MTT or a cash game... although I think with the new point system, it's closer to a MTT.
If you do it early in a tourney and get KO'd, then it'll take 2-4 tournies of getting ITM or near ITM... just to get back to a total of even league points. The phrase that comes to mind for me, is "you can't bluff a donk or a station".

However, once you get ITM and are down to the final 3-4 tables of a PSO... totally different story, as by then, most of the luck players are out.

hehe point taken, my bad im still sorta learning about how this PSO thing is working and all, ahwell i jst thought that itd be good for players to c some standard lines as such :P i dno :P

anyways cheers for the heads up
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 05:57 PM
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Pso the only advice to give is stall, stall, timeout fold your advice is very good for all other games played here
 
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Thanks :P - Thu Jul 28, 2011, 06:09 PM
(#12)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by roomik17 View Post
Pso the only advice to give is stall, stall, timeout fold your advice is very good for all other games played here
Hehe thanks roomik, yeah im only tryna help

Goodluck

will try post wnevr i cn
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 07:15 PM
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Hand #1:

I'd add #6:
To defend my blind the RIGHT WAY.

Early on I'm not doing this much from the BB, even in a 6 max MTT, simply because there is not much benefit to my stack, and the risk of a lot of oop play is too great.
If I continue weakly folding my blinds at a short table though, I am simply going to be giving up TOO MANY chips now.

While raising certainly opens me to a 4Bet I am folding to (I ain't playing QJ vs a 4Bet oop this deep even at a short table!), this 3Bet is a relatively "cheap" way to put the table on notice that my blinds are not going to be "free".

QJ is really not "terrible" versus a CALL range by Villain, as a lot of that is gong to be middle type pp, that he simply cannot 4Bet with confidence, but that he may perceive have enough implied odds potential to call on.

I think JJ here MIGHT have "room" to 4bet/fold (small 4Bet), although I know that is pretty "yuck", so that hand MIGHT be moved to the call range by a villain to avoid a 5Bet.

QQ+ is going to 4Bet with confidence in most 6max MTTs (I know I would).

AK and definately AQ are simply NOT in a decent player's call range here, and certainly KQ isn't (4bet range...maybe, call range? spew city imho!).

We really do not CARE about his 4Bet raise range at all though, because we are going to muck to ANY 4Bet...

Only his call range, thus "forcing" us to play post flop oop, is a real worry to us.

Since we "know" what to do in most all situations here, QJ is a really good hand to be using for a Blind defense 3Bet. Remember guys...3Bet folding is NOT necessarily "bad", 3betting and then being unsure what to do is bad...

Last edited by JDean; Thu Jul 28, 2011 at 07:33 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 07:33 PM
(#14)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Hand #1:

I'd add #6:
To defend my blind the RIGHT WAY.

Early on I'm not doing this much from the BB, even in a 6 max MTT, simply because there is not much benefit to my stack, and the risk of a lot of oop play is too great.
If I continue weakly folding my blinds at a short table though, I am simply going to be giving up TOO MANY chips now.

While raising certainly opens me to a 4Bet I am folding to (I ain't playing QJ vs a 4Bet oop this deep even at a short table!), this 3Bet is a relatively "cheap" way to put the table on notice that my blinds are not going to be "free".

QJ is really not "terrible" versus a CALL range by Villain, as a lot of that is gong to be middle type pp, that he simply cannot 4Bet with confidence, but that he may perceive have enough implied odds potential to call on.

I think JJ here MIGHT have "room" to 4bet/fold (small 4Bet), although I know that is pretty "yuck", so that hand MIGHT be moved to the call range by a villain to avoid a 5Bet.

QQ+ is going to 4Bet with confidence in most 6max MTTs (I know I would).

AK and definately AQ are simply NOT in a decent player's call range here, and certainly KQ isn't (4bet range...maybe, call range? spew city imho!).

We really do not CARE about his 4Bet raise range at all though, because we are going to muck to ANY 4Bet...

Only his call range, thus "forcing" us to play post flop oop, is a real worry to us.
tru that point taken JD lol 3 betting QJ there is a lil spewy hehe i thnk i was going with how d table had been playing, forgot tho :/ bleh

but u make valid points il take into consideration
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 07:35 PM
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I read my post while you were answering (before I saw your response) and edited to include a couple lines which clarify my point there...

I do not think it is spew-y at all...that is how "aggressive poker" is played mate...

Sometimes your agression doesn;t work, but more often it does; just make sure you know when is it is right "now", and that you don't do it too much to ruin your image, thus causing WEAKER play back!

I'm an "old school" LAG when I play Oku...I'm NOT a nit!


Last edited by JDean; Thu Jul 28, 2011 at 07:42 PM..
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 08:17 PM
(#16)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I read my post while you were answering (before I saw your response) and edited to include a couple lines which clarify my point there...

I do not think it is spew-y at all...that is how "aggressive poker" is played mate...

Sometimes your agression doesn;t work, but more often it does; just make sure you know when is it is right "now", and that you don't do it too much to ruin your image, thus causing WEAKER play back!

I'm an "old school" LAG when I play Oku...I'm NOT a nit!

Ooh i get you i get you, haha I wasnt calling you a nit
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 08:45 PM
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Hand #2:
My comments on your comments...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
Hand # 2 When to keep barreling

Here i have A-9 offsuit and standard open minraise from UTG 6 handed the table i am on has started to defend their blinds liberally after seeing a couple big bluffs
.......
I am fundementally AGAINST min betting, but then I freely admit I'm "old school".
That does not mean to imply I do not get the "why" of the min bet.
So I tend to agree with JWK; if this is your "standard", go for it.

I do, however, remember TJ Cloutier's lecture at the 2007 PSO Convention in Las Vegas (before Stars bought PSO)...

At that time he noted that he likes to raise a little bit LARGER than the standard raise for the rest of the table as HIS standard.
His reasoning is that this way when he gets called and takes a pot down on continuation, each pot is slightly LARGER than any pot an opponent will pick up the same way. The cumulative result of this will be his stack will grow FASTER than his opponents stacks.

"New School" small ball play seeks to put fewer chips into the pot pre-flop though, since the higher aggro tendencies of the "new style" tables tend to result in more 3 and 4Bets, thus more folds. That implies a REVERSE EFFECT of TJ's method, where larger bets (if made) will result in faster stack DEPLETION than your opponents. What have we got HERE though?

You've noted your table is playing pretty tightly, and "ABC". To me, that implies fewer 3 and 4Bets, rather than more.

In keeping with that I'd be more apt to go with TJ's suggested methods, making my open raises like 2.4x if the "table standard" is 2., rather than the reverse.
If that feels "un-comfortable" for you though, by all means stick with YOUR way...poker styles are definately about personal preferences, and this sort of thing is NOT "cast in stone".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
It is folded round to small blind who calls and we take a flop........Now at this point in the hand i already rep a stronger holding than villains perceived range, and by c betting the K-7-3 board we here are repping good K's but villain floats one off......
Agree...

I have found that a lot of players, even otherwise strong middle and upper level palyers, tend to have a blind play "leak" of being too passive and "float happy".

Old school players, those who are going to barrel C-Bets and Turn bets as almost a "norm", have a built in "float defense" to their games: floating 2 barrels is flipping HARD to pull off, because check/calling 2 streets is dam expensive, and a 2nd barrel bet on most flops i dam strong. Waiting until the river to spring a float via a donk bet or a C/R ain't working very often in a bloated pot...not without a hugely risky over-bet! But this is a much more "new school" type of event...

I think that a big stack caller out of the SB, one with basically double the stacks of anyone else at the table, is going to be trying to apply pressure by later street raising a bit too much for his own good. He knows you are going to C-Bet, so he plans to check/call no matter the flop, but he cannot know what you REALLY have.

You could have that "real" K, and without draws on a dry board, there isn;t a whole lotta scare cards that are going to put fear into your "AK"...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
i assume he had planed on peeling one off and MAYBE barreling the turn with a 4-5,6-5 type of hand but in this case a J hits the turn and hits a TON of my perceived value range here is mr range to villain : J10,QJ,KJ,AJ,AK,KQ,AQ, 33,77,88,99,1010,JJ,KK,AA,QQ.........(i did open UTG, and my image lets me do this playing tight) imo its insignificant for villain to think that i dont have a K at this point because villains perceived range dosn't alter at all once he checks back the turn hes lost in the hand imo even when he has a K, considering no 3 bet pre our perceived range of villain is wide : 45,56,64,7X,3X,A highs, KX-KQ and small pairs......there we see that only a teeny portion of this range could possibly continue in the hand and given that we continue to rep well and fire a turn barrel sticking with our read............
I agree with what you are putting out here. I would like to put it into my own words though, If you do not mind?

My internal dialogue here would go:

After betting the flop, and rep'ping the K, I have the firm betting lead.
Everything in My "story" right now jibes with having a good K.

My ranging thoughts about Villain are pretty un-formed here, because all he has done is call.
That does not mean I do not have ANY though; what do I know...

Villain didn't pressure pre via a 3Bet, so in essence he has "left off" bigger than top pair/medium kicker hits from his range.
...Unless he is tricky enough in the past to specifically slow play AK or AA pre. I watched the WSOP 2011 coverage, at the final 2 tables, there is a guy who does fall into this category, at least right before getting to Nov 9, so this is possible...but very rare at this ABC table.

My betting lead gives me leverage versus any even "strong" 1 pair hits, as continued barrels MIGHT have a chance to work, depending on the board, especially on pp under KK. I can expect hands like QQ/JJ that got "tricky" on me pre to be vomitting a little in their mouths afterall...

Being oop means villain also is not playing a lot of the 2 pair hits on this board, because that is a WAY raggy group
(unless he "lucked" into 'em when his intent was to play random cards for the float as his pre flop choice). the board is, howeer, "dry enough" to not rule out these big rag hits as slow play chances, especially since I am pretty Aggro.

33/77 are possible, but KK would be a "tricky" smooth call pre.
I've got no chance versus these hands with this board texture at all (even vs an uber nit), but my choice to raise UTG somewhat light means I AM going to lose some chips to a set.

Floats from the Blinds are pretty common plays now-a-day, because so many people in these 6 max tables are opening light.
This guy has a big stack, and may feel that gives him a fat lever agaisnt me, but I have a pretty big stack too...deep...plus I know what I have, he doesn't.

Villain is dang polarized here really...

I know what I'm doing on the turn...

If he checks again, I'm barrelling to test his hand, no matter what.
If he donk bets, I may well raise to test him, ace or no ace.
If he check/raises my barrel, I may flat with an ace to peel, or I may even fold depending on the C/R size.
If he flats a 2nd time, I am probably done with my hand unless it comes runners for me.

....

So bottom line here is I think the UTG raise pretty much locks you into a 2 barrel situation versus a check/caller when you have little or no "value" to your hand at all.
The REAL questions is whether you know how best to make the most out of the 2 barrels you ARE locking yourself to, and what you are going to do in various scenarioes to avoid over-playing your miss.

I think you had that down cold...nice job.
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 09:17 PM
(#18)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
fully agree with what you had 2 say, when you ask what i do if he calls the turn then imo i think i shuld just give up, i dnt c him folding if i did get called..
lol and to tell the truth i really am not sure about it when you ask if i know how to make the most out of 2 barrels? lol thats a confusing question to me soz my english isnt the greatest :P
 
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Thu Jul 28, 2011, 09:21 PM
(#19)
Oku_Ha_FooLs's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 188
by the way thats fairly interesting info by cloutier, i had used to be 2.5xing as my standard tho but later just took a liking to min raising
 
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Fri Jul 29, 2011, 12:04 AM
(#20)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oku_Ha_FooLs View Post
fully agree with what you had 2 say, when you ask what i do if he calls the turn then imo i think i shuld just give up, i dnt c him folding if i did get called..
lol and to tell the truth i really am not sure about it when you ask if i know how to make the most out of 2 barrels? lol thats a confusing question to me soz my english isnt the greatest :P
It wasnt directed at YOU, specific, more a "general you", meaning anyone considering 2 barrelling.

By that I was meaning to imply that 2 barrelling air is good so long as you know enough aobut your opponent to do it only when it has a strong tendency to "work". If you do not have that knowledge, then it is far better to stick with 1 barrel, or 2 barrels only with semi bluff potential.

See?
 

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