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Was it worth the limp ?

 
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Was it worth the limp ? - Sun Jul 31, 2011, 09:24 AM
(#1)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 09:46 AM
(#2)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Woah that was weird.... ummm why did you limp with AKs? A pot with 4 other limpers is not the best idea in the world, really bad actually. You raise to get maybe 1 or 2 other people in the pot... 1 preferably. I think you played it bad...not to be harsh or anything. You won the pot out of luck next time i would raise Jdean or someone will probably give you a further explanation of why you should limp with a hand like that

Keep your stick on the ice
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 11:46 AM
(#3)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_eagle23 View Post
Woah that was weird.... ummm why did you limp with AKs? A pot with 4 other limpers is not the best idea in the world, really bad actually. You raise to get maybe 1 or 2 other people in the pot... 1 preferably. I think you played it bad...not to be harsh or anything. You won the pot out of luck next time i would raise Jdean or someone will probably give you a further explanation of why you should limp with a hand like that

Keep your stick on the ice
This is my new way of playing AK early in the donkfests
If I miss it's an easy fold with minimum losses
But if I hit I usually get rewarded big
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 01:29 PM
(#4)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Quote:
Originally Posted by spike8998 View Post
This is my new way of playing AK early in the donkfests
If I miss it's an easy fold with minimum losses
But if I hit I usually get rewarded big
PSO? if it is it's probably the best play in the world! lol i don't play PSO so i wouldn't know but i heard there's a lot of donks playing it. Maybe it was a good play then
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 01:31 PM
(#5)
Brizer73's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 270
I Agree with you Spike - Any other comp and i'm raising that Big Slick.
But seen as you are in the PSSL with crazies all around - I can't blame you one bit.
You miss the A or K or a high str8 chance and u could get taken down by a pair of 2's.
What's the point in putting a large slice of your chip's in early on ??? B
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 02:42 PM
(#6)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Your not willing to put 2-4x preflop but when you hit 1 pair on a board that's paired and has 3 clubs on it your willing to call 38 BB? Your call on the river was correct but there seems to be a disconnect between your thought process and actions. This guy could very well could have had you beat, AJ, A8, A4, 88, any 4 any 2 clubs all have you beat, with the way you played it I would have folded the river. You only invested 3 BB's up to the river, so why all of sudden is your hand now worth 38 BB's?
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 03:11 PM
(#7)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
Your not willing to put 2-4x preflop but when you hit 1 pair on a board that's paired and has 3 clubs on it your willing to call 38 BB? Your call on the river was correct but there seems to be a disconnect between your thought process and actions. This guy could very well could have had you beat, AJ, A8, A4, 88, any 4 any 2 clubs all have you beat, with the way you played it I would have folded the river. You only invested 3 BB's up to the river, so why all of sudden is your hand now worth 38 BB's?
Why ? I felt lucky & I had a feeling I had him beat
He checked the flop like everyone else did so I figured no-one had the 4 or the 8
Also I figured no-one had the flush draw too
Because prior to this hand the other players were shoving on flush/straight draws as well as hitting bottom pair on the flop
I put the shover on A7os plus the other 2 checked the river to give me more info that they had nothing

Last edited by spike8998; Sun Jul 31, 2011 at 03:19 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 03:36 PM
(#8)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
If your plan is to pot control you did a good job until the river. You invested less than 3% of your stack before the river and called off more than 36% of your stack on 1 street, therefore I don't like the call. Your relying on him being able to shove those weaker Aces, but how likely is he to shove them? At this point I think it's just to early to tell. I've had those gut feelings before, sometimes your right, sometimes your wrong, the times your wrong really hurt, especially so in PSO league.

Personally, when first in I would open for a raise 100% of the time PSO or otherwise, AKs is pretty easy to play in a raised pot even if you get called by multiple players. You have over 100bb's, a 3x raise wont kill you if you miss, but will create very favorable situations when you hit.

Last edited by PaidInFull6; Sun Jul 31, 2011 at 03:44 PM..
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 07:01 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Waa Waa Wee Waa...

Ok, this is a hand that I think PSO messes with peoples' heads on.

I do understand why you'd limp AKs in EP in a PSO event.
You got too MUSH potential value to fold...
You do not have ENOUGH potential value to want to call a pre jam by one of the droolers you might be facing...

AKs is also better to limp than AKo, simply because of draw or re-draw chances inherent in you being suited sort of "protects" you against the almost certain large multi-way pot you are going to see.

I do have a couple of questions for you?

1) What do you do if you see multiple limpers, and the button RAISES strongly?
2) What "hits" do you consider "enough" to continue in the pot via CALLS?
3) How much would you be willing to call on each of the hands you'd continue?

I ask those things because you have elected to play AKs highly passively.

NEXT...

No raises, so you got what you wanted: a Cheap flop with AK that can result in an "easy" fold if you miss which will happen 2/3rds+ of the time).

You do miss, and check...this is definately in keeping with your "plan" for the hand. I am assuming you muck to just about any bet here? Giving your line, folding to any bet would be the preferable choice.

Turn spikes you with an off suit ACE.
You check/call a 60 chip bet; the pot continues with 4 players as you call, and the villain right behind you calls as well.

Ssssssssssssss...

This is where I both see a COVERGEANCE and a DIVERGEANCE of PSO play vis a vis "regular" MTT, thus I am pretty torn about your play on this street...

On the one hand, I "get" that PSO is all about risk aversion, and such.
The arguement can easily be made that by check/calling you are keeping the pot quite small, thus making later street calls "cheaper".
That is how play here diverges from "normal" MTT on on this depth of money:
In those events you may well want to RAISE or CHECK/RAISE (at least) your spiked Ace here, because thi is about he BEST TIME you are going to get to be best, and you really want to eliminate some draws to make your hand hold up better (or make river folding easier)...

You'd want to do that because on the turn you are laying "infinate odds" to ANY draw here when you check, and with 3 villains and 2 clubs on board (plus the gut shot straight chances), that is pretty risky. BUT...

The 3 villains, many of whom are likely to have quite LOOSE entry standards, really REALLY jacks up the chance you are already facing a 4. So when chip preservation is a "concern" as great as in PSO's, there is definately a case for check/calling small. In that case you are essentially playing your A as a "draw", hoping to spike a boat on the river and find you are not facing 44.

The convergeance, as I see it, is that a check/raise NOW will leverage and "define" your hand a lot cheaper now, if made in this pretty "tiny" pot in relation to your stack.
There is 'benefit" in doing that in a PSO, because opponents may be quite "wild", and delay "big" chip moves or the river. Those big river moves may well be bluffs, or hey may well be 4's, it will be really hard to say...

Bottom line: I cannot really FAULT your check/cal in a PSO, but I could also see "reason" for raising it up to aorund 180 to go here too...

NEXT...

Cannot really say I "like" your river play much.

River comes Jc, putting the 3rd club on board.
You again check, and that I do agree with; it is really in keeping with your line thus far.

It checks around to the guy who lead the turn though, and he jams in over 1100 chips; a pot over bet by about 700 chips, and which puts you well over 1/3rd into the pot.
Let's break the situation, and your decision down, shall we? We will look a things "arguing" for, and against, a call:

FOR A CALL:
1) Guy led small on the turn, so there is a decent chance he has "just" an A...you beat all Aces except A4/A8/AJ, or AXc.
2) You cannot "go broke" just from calling this bet, and if that is all you must call you will at least have 62+ BB remaining in your stack.
3) If you are right in calling the river jam, then you will quite likely have enough of a stack to ladder climb all the way to plus points easily.

AGAINST A CALL:
1) You maintained a "pot control" all along as a method of chip preservation; This line has denied you much of the info you might have to know if your hand is good, or was ever good.
2) You did a very good job of limiting your exposure thus far, so is it really "worth" a 33%+ loss to your start stack to go against that line?
3) How far from plus points are you now off your current league score, how far must you go to reach them, and can you get there on "just" 1800 in chips?
4) Did you ever consider that since you are not CLOSING THE BETTING with your call, you may have faced a re-jam by the stack behind you? A re-jam form there would essentially "cripple" you if you are wrong...

SO...

I'll be honest, if it were down to just the first 3 facotrs on each side of your decision, it is quite a toss up. With only those things in play, I'd not really be fussed one way or the other about a river call in a PSO event...there would be pretty equal "risk" and "reward".

But with the last factor weighing AGAINST a call, and the fact you have started on a clear pot control line, I think if it had come an off suit J a call might still be ok, but with a SUITED J appearing, then you may have taken just a little bit too much risk given your chosen line.
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 08:16 PM
(#10)
spike8998's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 853
Thanks JD
But as I stated earlier I didn't believe anyone had the flush because they would have jammed on the flop , this also applies to the 4's and 8's
So my reasoning was they had all missed hitting on the flop with a flush draw or 8's&4's
When the ace came I was 90% certain I was ahead
The Jc on the river didn't scare me one iota
I therefore summized no-one had the flush , any 8 or 4 I put the other 2 on missed straight draws with 53 and T7 because they not only checked the river they checked the flop
The villan shove I put on Ax off suit and the call proved correct when he shows A5os
If he was on AJs or Ajos he would have jammed pre-flop as he did earlier for a split pot
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 11:07 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I'd have raised, but can see why you could limp too. If you raise, actually, maybe the only one that could fold was the person you ended up in the pot with in the end. The rest looked like big stack calling stations that have gotten lucky, so they're probably not dropping.

With that many in the pot, it's a wonder someone didn't draw out on you or out-flop you.

Although, limping with AK can get you alot tighter table image, that you may be able to exploit later in the tourney (if anyone from the table stays in it with you... which the stations probably won't).

With that big of a river bet by your opp, is one of 2 things... the nuts or a bluff (which he turned his weak ace into). I don't mind the check on the turn for pot control (and can also get info on who else may have an A)... but I'd have bet the river, instead of letting someone else shove.

Great call on the river
 

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