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The river gave me a hint

 
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The river gave me a hint - Sun Jul 31, 2011, 05:19 PM
(#1)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
PokerStars Game #65344789230: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2011/07/31 18:36:17 NT [2011/07/31 17:06:17 ET]
Table 'Kapteynia VI' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: kwachu14 ($6.06 in chips)
Seat 4: the_eagle23 ($5.15 in chips)
Seat 5: WICTOR4 ($2.85 in chips)
Seat 6: skayr ($5.34 in chips)
kwachu14: posts small blind $0.02
the_eagle23: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_eagle23 [Jc Js]
WICTOR4: folds
skayr: raises $0.15 to $0.20
kwachu14: folds
the_eagle23: calls $0.15
*** FLOP *** [6h 3c 9d]
the_eagle23: checks
skayr: bets $0.30
the_eagle23: calls $0.30
*** TURN *** [6h 3c 9d] [7d]
the_eagle23: checks
skayr: bets $0.75
the_eagle23: calls $0.75
*** RIVER *** [6h 3c 9d 7d] [9h]
the_eagle23: checks
skayr: bets $1.85
the_eagle23: calls $1.85
*** SHOW DOWN ***
skayr: shows [Qd As] (a pair of Nines)
the_eagle23: shows [Jc Js] (two pair, Jacks and Nines)
the_eagle23 collected $5.92 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $6.22 | Rake $0.30
Board [6h 3c 9d 7d 9h]
Seat 1: kwachu14 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: the_eagle23 (big blind) showed [Jc Js] and won ($5.92) with two pair, Jacks and Nines
Seat 5: WICTOR4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: skayr (button) showed [Qd As] and lost with a pair of Nines

The reason i say the river gave me a hint was because the board paired and i thought if she did have an overpair wouldn't she check behind me in case i was going for a check raise on the river with my trips since i called her on the flop and turn? The villian was a TAG so i doubt she had a 9 and i seen her just call with low pairs before so i didn't think she had 66 so i could only put her on AK or AQ sure enough i called and she turned over AQ boy was i relieved.... sohow was my reasoning on this?
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 07:42 PM
(#2)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
It's good that you're trying to read hands, eagle. Not sure if you're bringing up the hint because it influenced your action, though. Were you planning to raise the river? I'm curious why you went into check/calling mode with JJ at a four-handed table to begin with, really. Four-handed, you could 3bet JJ preflop for straight-up value. Calling is good, too, but you have to 3bet the flop or turn to give yourself a shot at winning the villain's stack. I think that if you only call preflop, you're almost obligated to raise the flop with the overpair. It wouldn't have worked here, obviously, but you didn't try to get max value where you were incredibly likely to be ahead.

On a side note, you should note down that this villain is capable of triple barrels on a bluff with only two overcards.
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 07:48 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Pretty solid river thoughts actually...

On these types of boards, in these types of games, you either find a lot of villains who "slow play" a ton (like YOU were doing on JJ), or call on even light top pair hits a ton.

When villain barrels you twice, there is a chance they hold something like A9/K9, but there is ALSO a chance they hold QQ+.

The river check MIGHT seem to be "open season" for a value bet, but is it really that for JJ?

Fact is, it is quite easy for Villain to hold a QQ hand, see that 2nd 9 and think YOU might be check/calling a top pai hand all the way. The villain may even clue in to the fact that 2 check/calls is usually NOT a delayed float of some sort, so they may consider a set is easily in your range...and a 9 in their hand might be a check/call for some players. And on and on...

Fact is, whenever you are on a hand which might be a value betting hand you SHOULD bet the river. But if your hand is likely to see folds by worse, and calls or raises by better, a value bet on the river makes little "sense"; all it does is tend to re-open the betting for a potential bluff stab you may not be able to call. So I do not see this board, with the 9 binking the river, as very likely you are getting called by much worse here (except MAYBE TT). There is nothing wrong with fore-going a value bet on the river in that case...

...now if you want to consider your EARLIER PLAY, I think THAT might have been a bit to "passive and trappy"...

...but that is a consideration for another thread.
 
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Sun Jul 31, 2011, 09:23 PM
(#4)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
Thanks guys, you have no idea have much i appreciate your feedback. I guess i give some of these guys too much credit sometimes.
 
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Mon Aug 01, 2011, 09:33 AM
(#5)
the_eagle23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 231
OK, thinking it over a 3 bet preflop WOULD have been the best play because i look at it like this correct me if i'm wrong but i think if i made the 3 bet preflop that would have been a very informative bet by my part. I say this because if i 3bet and the villian 4 bets most likely she is holding QQ,KK,AA but if she just calls i would think AK,AQ,(1010,99 maybe on these) right?? i know she could obviously 4 bet with something like AK but never mind that lol. So if she 4 bets me i pretty much have to fold, but if she calls me more often than not i am ahead right?
 
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Mon Aug 01, 2011, 10:35 AM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Because you're four-handed, everyone's ranges should widen significantly. They might not, but when four people are dealt hands, if one of them gets JJ, it's more likely to be the best hand than if there were more people dealt in. If you 3bet, you should be getting called by a lot worse than JJ, and if the villain is particularly aggressive, you could think about jamming JJ if they 4bet you because it's just that strong four-handed. If the villain hasn't adjusted to the shorter-handedness (which is actually a pretty rare thing for villains at these stakes to do), then you can fold JJ to a 4bet. But not going for a double-up with an overpair at a super short table seems like serious missed value.
 

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