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5NL Bet sizing on River

5NL Bet sizing on River - Mon Aug 01, 2011, 03:23 PM
Deleted user
Im curious to see if you guys/gals would take the same line on turn and river.

Drzi82 11/11/67 over 57 hands and I have only seen him showdown 1 hand A2s
Shinninghasi 39/37/42 over 54 hands he has shown up with a wide range of hands and is pretty loose.
I was playing pretty loose to establish a image and misleaf the stats for the table.
Something like 32/26/? think aggression must have been about 40%. So I looked like a donk and I know it was working when I started 2 more tables and regs where willing to sit to my right just to sit with me.

So the turn was pretty much just a stab and at the same time a pot control instance.
Most people with a flush would think I would stab again on the river and could raise me then especially having position on me. So the weak turn bet plays into my image of donk and donks love to bet weak all streets and spew river.
River comes and Im trying to think of a good bet size to keep him on the hook.
I didnt actually think he had a flush at this point,if I did I might have played it differently.
I bet strong to look like a bluff and he does the old raise that people make when they have the nuts and dont know what else I would call. I shove in hopes of it looking like 2pair bluff and it works.

Thoughts on how this could be played differently?

PokerStars Game #65381584874: Hold'em No Limit ($0.02/$0.05 USD) - 2011/08/01 10:51:40 PT [2011/08/01 13:51:40 ET]
Table 'Joella V' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: R00Eu1 ($7.46 in chips)
Seat 2: IseeCookies ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 3: drzi82 ($3.48 in chips)
Seat 4: JCthebestxD ($2.34 in chips)
Seat 5: zenit35 ($6.43 in chips)
Seat 6: shininghasi ($4.65 in chips)
Seat 7: rafs77 ($3.67 in chips)
Seat 8: HesusChrist ($7.06 in chips)
Seat 9: Repka2006 ($3.93 in chips)
R00Eu1: posts small blind $0.02
IseeCookies: posts big blind $0.05
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [Jc Qd]
drzi82: calls $0.05
JCthebestxD: folds
zenit35: folds
shininghasi: calls $0.05
rafs77: folds
HesusChrist: calls $0.05
Repka2006: folds
R00Eu1: folds
IseeCookies: checks
*** FLOP *** [Qh 5h Jh]
IseeCookies: checks
drzi82: checks
shininghasi: checks
HesusChrist: checks
*** TURN *** [Qh 5h Jh] [3d]
IseeCookies: bets $0.10
drzi82: calls $0.10
shininghasi: calls $0.10
HesusChrist: folds
*** RIVER *** [Qh 5h Jh 3d] [Jd]
IseeCookies: bets $0.40
drzi82: raises $0.55 to $0.95
shininghasi: folds
IseeCookies: raises $5.05 to $6 and is all-in
drzi82: calls $2.38 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($2.67) returned to IseeCookies
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IseeCookies: shows [Jc Qd] (a full house, Jacks full of Queens)
drzi82: mucks hand
IseeCookies collected $6.83 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $7.18 | Rake $0.35
Board [Qh 5h Jh 3d Jd]
Seat 1: R00Eu1 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: IseeCookies (big blind) showed [Jc Qd] and won ($6.83) with a full house, Jacks full of Queens
Seat 3: drzi82 mucked [Th Kh]
Seat 4: JCthebestxD folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: zenit35 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: shininghasi folded on the River
Seat 7: rafs77 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: HesusChrist folded on the Turn
Seat 9: Repka2006 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 03:32 PM
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
I like it, his stats are odd 11/11 but went to showdown with A2.... seems like an odd hand when only playing 11%.. you had the stone cold nuts, and suckered him real well

Maybe bet the flop.. if your image is being a donk I would expect you to raise anything too..other than that you stacked him so no real complaints
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 04:41 PM
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
Nice one Cookies!!
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 05:03 PM
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I think you're both guilty of a little f p s to be honest and lost a little value by not betting the flop. lots and lots of worse hands could have called you there and with your image as a donk (not that I think 36/26 is totally donkish.same kind of numbers a small baller would have) you probably would have got 1 of the other villains to come along to see the turn..but like room said here, you got him stacked so all in all pretty well done. just mo for what its worth. Great discussion hand. Stack em high! MT

Edit: told you i'd poke my head in the door every now and then... lol

Last edited by mtnestegg; Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 05:06 PM..
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 05:30 PM
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Great to see you peep the head in mtn,

I was going to say the same thing myself, but did not want to appear stupid

The small bet on the turn was pretty nice though. Why the villain did not at least bet one street before the river for value is beyond me and why he called the huge river bet with a paired board is even more perplexing?

The fact he played here with K,10 suited and the only other hand he played to showdown was A2 suited shows a liking for suited paint cards that borders on fetish like. With 11/11 that seems very odd indeed. maybe he knows something we don't know.

Nice to see you got all his stack, Cookies

Mon Aug 01, 2011, 05:48 PM
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I would have played differently, but I hate playing 3-flush flops. I probably make more money off of them by bluffing when I flop air than by value betting when I flop a non-nut flush. They're awful. I suck at playing them.

I would have bet roughly 2/3x pot on the flop. It would be a bluff, and I think I would reluctantly check/fold the turn.

As played, I think you're overvaluing your image if you bet as small as you did on the turn. The problem is that when you're ahead, draws are priced in to call and you are not building the pot for when you eventually take it down; and when you're behind, you're basically paying 1bb to check. You're not gaining anything (including information). I'm also confused regarding whether you thought you were likely to be ahead on the turn, or if you thought you were bluffing.

On the river, I think you made a good series of actions, but I don't think your image had much to do with your getting paid off. It looks like your villain flopped a flush, and slowplayed it so terribly that even when the board paired, he couldn't let go. Were I in his shoes, even if I had you labelled as a clueless fish (and I actually label people as such so I can find them in the lobby), I would have folded. If someone is going to 3bet, then call a pot-sized 4bet shove with a non-nut flush on a paired board, they're not sophisticated enough to use reads, imo.
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 05:52 PM
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hows the personal challenge going Panicky?

I hope well

Mon Aug 01, 2011, 05:54 PM
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Not bad. Almost ready to post my 2k results.
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 06:27 PM
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I would have played differently, but I hate playing 3-flush flops. I probably make more money off of them by bluffing when I flop air than by value betting when I flop a non-nut flush. They're awful. I suck at playing them.
Especially if they're high-value cards like they are here, because there's so many hands that flop hard - pocket pairs that make a set, two pair possibilities (with the full house draw for both the set and 2pr), the nut flush draw and any pair, straight draw and flush draw and over(s), etc ...

The bluff rate is so high, and flopping-the-flush-rate is so low ... sometimes the pots get jacked up so quickly ...

I guess sometimes it depends on who else is in the pot?

* * * * *

I'm surprised the flush waited until the river to reraise, because their hand was still vulnerable to getting outdrawn by so many hands. If somebody had made a pot-sized raise from the outset, I wonder if the person with the flush would have done their reraise then. In which case, Cookie might have had to fold? Would y'all have called or folded if the raise got reraised? Not sure what I would do ... I guess it would depend on those reads again ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Mon Aug 01, 2011 at 06:44 PM..
Mon Aug 01, 2011, 06:40 PM
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I seem to only ever get action by nut flushes when I bet these boards. I've stacked off so many times in flush-over-flush confrontations (prob like 5 times, but I can't remember ever getting a worse flush to stack off when I've held the non-nuts). That's why i think I'm better at bluffing these boards than value betting them w/o the nuts.
Wed Aug 03, 2011, 12:58 PM
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
I actually like the check on the flop.
Yes, you have 2 pair, but with 3 in... you need to see if you'll have the best hand in the end. Any big heart will call your bet, but anyone without that, a set or 2 pair would drop to the 3-card flop flush. If the 4th heart hits, you can get out cheap... but if someone has middle or bottom pair and can hit 2 pair or a set with the free card, you can stack them.

I also like the bet on the turn, because you either need to bet the flop or turn to build a small pot (to give better odds to your opps to call on the river).
The river bet, like the size of it, as it's not too much (showing your monster)... the raise by your opp says to me they have a J or are sandbagging a flush. Either way, they're probably not folding and re-raising them to stack them is exactly what I'd have done.

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