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1 table $1.50 SNG did Cae make the right call?

 
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1 table $1.50 SNG did Cae make the right call? - Wed Aug 03, 2011, 10:16 PM
(#1)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi I cannot get the hand replayer to work this time ..I was only going to include preflop but it wouldnt allow me so i paste it

The table had been extremely tight (except for TOP_BRAZIL)

1. Did I make the correct allin?

2. did Cae make the correct call

I have my thoughts but want clarification please , remember this is a 1 tbl sng and not MTT

PokerStars Game #65499251575: Tournament #422848736, $1.29+$0.21 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2011/08/04 2:07:22 WET [2011/08/03 21:07:22 ET]
Table '422848736 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: rolo834 (1311 in chips)
Seat 2: Caelos346 (1066 in chips)
Seat 3: carlosand79 (1435 in chips)
Seat 4: SpiritDeanLi (1823 in chips)
Seat 5: mmmyesplease (2110 in chips)
Seat 6: fast mizinho (1030 in chips)
Seat 8: TOP_BRAZIL (3490 in chips)
Seat 9: LucAk47 (1235 in chips)
rolo834: posts small blind 50
Caelos346: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to rolo834 [3h As]
carlosand79: folds
SpiritDeanLi: folds
mmmyesplease: folds
fast mizinho: folds
TOP_BRAZIL: folds
LucAk47: folds
rolo834: raises 1211 to 1311 and is all-in
Caelos346: calls 966 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (245) returned to rolo834

Ooops havent included his hand I meant too but let makes this interesting how many hands ..what range should he be calling in with?

Please help me ty

Once you have had time to answer I want to tell you at a later date his actual hand if you need that?

rolo
 
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Wed Aug 03, 2011, 10:48 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Ok, a single table SNG is a lot more about ICM considerations than a similar stage of an MTT. This is so because a single table is the equivalent of a final table in an MTT. With that said...

To get to level 4 without busting anyone does indicate quite a "tight" table indeed.

You do have a relatively low "M" number here, but as stated above, Single table play is a lot more aobut "Q" (your relative chip stack size compared to others) than strict M considerations. This is true because the deeper you get into the event, the more the "pressure" of escalating blinds and antes begins to take effect across the board. Look at your situation here...

EVERYONE, except top brazil, is under 20BB and the max M is aorund 12 (for all but top brazil). In Harrignton on Hold em, an M of 12 indicates a severe trucation of playability of hands, and demands an increased level of aggression upon pot entries, because that stack size is "enough" to fold off a couple orbits, but is NOT enough to play a hand with standard aggression all the way through to the river.

Based on this dynamic, when it is folded to you in the SB, I do not see anything "wrong" with an open shove on A3. Your M IS shrinking (it is under 10), so you do benefit a lot from taking the BB away. The dynamic, and the "threat" your stack poses to Caelos is such that he should fold more often than he calls...thus you will "win" quite a bit.

the problem with shoving your A3 is that you really need an indication of Caelos' "mind state". Does he feel people are rampantly stealing his blinds? Is he starting to wake up to the fact that he cannot simply fold his way to the money as the (near) bottom stack? What hands might he have indicated are "enough" to stand on?

Without that info, it is hard to guage how likely you are to "get away" with using A3 as a blind steal hand. Wihtout ranging info, it is hard to know if you are betting A3 for 'value" either.

Fact is though, this far form in the money, and on his stack size, his calling range should be wider than normal. That bodes ill for your A3, because even a lot of the hands you are "ahead of", hands like KQ/QJ etc, are going to have strong equity against you at least. Obviously, bigger Aces are also easily in his stand range.

I'll be honest, in these spots, when I am facing a stack that is small and might be feeling "pressure", I prefer to ONLY enter pots against those hands if I am reasonably "happy" about playing for thier whole stack. Did you feel that way with A3?

If you did, then fine...go with A3.

As for his calling range, on this table dynamic, and this table spread...I am probably calling on broadways down to QJ, any A8+, and any pp. but that is jsut me...
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 12:56 AM
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rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
TY JD hey I would not lie to ya and waste your time it had been really tight ..1 player had busted to top_brazil

ty JD so my push was fine and all I am saying for now is the table had been super tight...all players including myself (except for the chip leader)

you have nearly named his hand @ the time I felt his call with his hand was bad....because the table had been so tight and I had been so tight I fully expected him to only call with a monster hand

so if it was someone pushing into you you would call with "broadways down to QJ, any A8+, and any pp ".(and his exact hand was in your range)

It is this part I struggle with the most how do you come by these hands?..Is it from experience or pokerstove ? or where

If the situation had been of revered I wouldnt have called with what he did - so would I have made a mistake?

I ddnt expect a call a vast majority of the time and thought my fold equitywas very high given that the table had been so tight - it was kinda how the flop and turn came out ..I thought oh havent posted a hand for a while so its a good one to

I nearly came back as next hand with 235 chips had 33 called allin tripled up but then lost out to chip leader

rolo...I will tell you his hand tomorrow but whereas t surprised me from what you have said it wouldnt have surprised you- but I think hes spewing equity by racing there(well he wasnt even racing)
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 02:56 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
you have nearly named his hand @ the time I felt his call with his hand was bad....because the table had been so tight and I had been so tight I fully expected him to only call with a monster hand

so if it was someone pushing into you you would call with "broadways down to QJ, any A8+, and any pp ".(and his exact hand was in your range)

It is this part I struggle with the most how do you come by these hands?..Is it from experience or pokerstove ? or where
It is a 'balancing act" that comes from "feel".

the first factor in setting the range for my shove/call decision is that you'd been playing tightly.
Since you too "need" chips, I do not think you would shove hands into me that are extremely "strong"; you;d be more inclined to raise a smaller amount, or flat in to get more value from me with "monsters".

second factor is that you "know" I have been playing tightly. As such, you would likely think I will FOLD my blind to a shove, rather than go bust on a marginal hand.

third factor is that have a good bit (about 9/10%) of my stack posted; I simply CANNOT keeping folding away that amount (or more) much longer. So that makes me think...

1) you may have UNPAIRED CARDS. Any pp is "ahead" of that. So all pp go into the range.

2) you may have a WEAK pp. QJ is racing any pp up thru TT. additionally, as long as you are not on a STRONG un-paired A, QJ+ will tend to give me at least 40% equity versus your Aces, so i am not TERRBLY behind those hands.

3) A8 and above is AHEAD of half the ace kickers you MIGHT have. It is also ahead of hands like JT/QJ etc, that fall into the realm of "good but not great" hands you might shove on. I do not want to go LOWER than A8 tho, because you might have an A and I do not want to "stand" in a dominated position if I can help it.

so that's how I'd arrive at my call range versus your shove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
If the situation had been of revered I wouldnt have called with what he did - so would I have made a mistake?
not necessarily...

you have 300 more chips than he has. Right now that means you can "afford" 2 more full orbits than him, which means you have 18 "more" hands you can look at than he has if you both start pushing "any 2" at the exact same stack level.

If you both were the tiniest stacks by a good margin at the table, then yes this COULD be a "mistake" not to call a short stack blind on blind jam much tighter than the range I outlined, but no one is really MUCH ahead of your 1300 except the one big stack...that means YOUR stack has a lot more "life" than the 1k BB's stacks...see?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
rolo...I will tell you his hand tomorrow but whereas t surprised me from what you have said it wouldnt have surprised you- but I think hes spewing equity by racing there(well he wasnt even racing
As short as he is, right at 10BB if he folds, he doesn't NEED to be racing to make a call "right". Any jam in front of him means he is looking at 150 + 1000 in the pot. He is getting so short that he must start to "accept" even 40% "underneath" positions, or else the table could jsut STAY nitted up and let him blind out first...see?

That is why if he did call you on something like QJ, especially suited, it does not surprise me at all. QJ is about 44/56 vs your A3 in equity, and when you consider a more "standard" all in hand (AKo) is 45/55 equity vs 77, is it REALLY that far from a typical "race"?

Even if he "gives" you A2o thru ATo, his QJ is STILL 43.5/56.5 vs that range of Aces. Again, how "far" from your typical race situation is that?

Remember in my first response when I said I rarely enter a pot vs a very short stack unless I am "willing" to paly for all their chips?

The REASON I say that is exactly what is demostrated by the hidden "power" of hands like QJ for making a "stand"...

They are not often "ahead", but if they are not "dominated" by big Aces or KQ/KJ, they are rarely THAT far behind either...

now do you see why he might "stand" somewhat lighter than you expected?
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 05:09 PM
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rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi again JD to answer your question in yoru first reply I was happy pushing allin with A3 with a tight image and the big blind being tight and i mean had been super tight from memory my VPIP was around 13 and his was 9(he wa sthe tightest palyer at the table and I was joint 2nd!!!)

I suck on putting peopel on ranges(along with a lot of other areas in poker) and plan on working on these areas
I od not understand the equitysyet for example your "QJ+ will tend to give me at least 40% equity versus your Aces"

so that is a big part of why I guess I thought his call was terrible and unexpected

It had been a strange $1 game usually there loose players ..but everytime I tried a steal someone reriased allin yet 8 out of 9 players were tight a d i mean supertight

yeah I do kind of undersand but if im honest in my head his call was terrible therefore I got to change my style

The way it panned out even if i had AA i would have lost..been running bad lately(or playing bad)........yet when I first started playing poker I was runnign super hot (or playing good)

Im up about $50 I think so the $1 doesnt affect my bankroll but I want to get better

So may I ask you this?...now iknow its all about arange of hand she is suppose dotput me on and Im supposed tput him on (although im not good at that side of the game in fact Im terrible I know that) so @ least I know ahuge area where I can improve so thats a godo thing

but lets say it wa slive game and I had accidentally flipped my cards over A3o as in the example and he has KJs (this is the actual hand he had btw)...is his call good????

Im thinking not but after speaking with you im not 100% certianany more more like 90%

It wa s a good push(not trying to be results orientated here but if he gets all his money behind im happy flop was well i paste it

rolo834: raises 1211 to 1311 and is all-in
Caelos346: calls 966 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (245) returned to rolo834
*** FLOP *** [9s 5s 5h]
*** TURN *** [9s 5s 5h] [2s]
*** RIVER *** [9s 5s 5h 2s] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
rolo834: shows [3h As] (a pair of Fives)
Caelos346: shows [Ks Js] (a flush, King high)
Caelos346 collected 2132 from pot

As you can see he floped a flushdraw turned K flush and even then I had outs
In a blind on blind battle in a MTT I htink Ilike his call when we area long way off the bubble well tobe honest im not thriled by it but it ok ishhh.......but in SNG I do think it was apoor call

He must have known I had K high beat so hes racing from behind
Then again if i had AK or AA or any hand really he would have won

If i had raised small preflop I would have een unsure how to play that flop OOP I do not like to raise fold with 10bb effective so I would be potcommited

i ran it thru pokerstove and its 55/45% in my favour I perosnally do no tlike racing for my life yet I suppose if you get down to a very low number of bigblinds it ok(unsure of what thisnumber is but I would hazard a pure guess at say 4 to 6??? )

I guess i need ot gamble it up a bit more

So are you saying he should take a race say 40/60 because he only had 10bb?


ty for your feedback it sure give sme plenty to think about

rolo
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 05:59 PM
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in a tourney like that, normally it's time to push or get into races at 10BB or less.
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 06:35 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post

I suck on putting peopel on ranges(along with a lot of other areas in poker) and plan on working on these areas
I od not understand the equitysyet for example your "QJ+ will tend to give me at least 40% equity versus your Aces"

so that is a big part of why I guess I thought his call was terrible and unexpected
Effective ranging is done by both observing PAST actions to "remember" what the villain might do in similar circumstances, and also having the experience to make "inferences" about what they may do in NEW circumstances.

The first part is somewhat "easy"; all it calls for is a good memory, and the ability to know a situation is very similar to past situations. Truth be known, a lot of players never advance beyond looking at their own cards though, so while it is "easy" if you try it, it is not a "given" that players ARE doing this. This gives you an idea of the "level" of their poker thinking...

Here is an outline of what the Levels of poker thought are:

Level 0 Thinking = You have no knowledge at all of hand strengths, or you simply do not care about hand strength. You believe any 2 can win, and your actions are guided by that fact. This might result in you CALLING "everything", no matter what, or it may result in you going all in no matter what.

Level 1 Thinking = You have started to have some knowledge of poker hand strength, and what might be a "strong" hand versus a "weak" hand. But since you are thinking ONLY about the strength of YOUR hand, you may still tend to call too much (just "in case" he is bluffing and your 2nd pair is good), raise too much ("gee, I have A6 and there is an Ace on board. have top pair so that is good!"), or even FOLD too much ("omg! I raised AK and totally missed the flop. I cannot call that min bet without at least a pair!).

Level 2 Thinking = You have now started to consider the strenght of your hand, AND the potential strength of your opponent's hand. This is the point where you will generally start to "use" observations of past actions to formulate your decisions. This is the first level where you are moving beyond "card dependance" for your decisions, but you are not yet using all the info you COULD be using, so you probably are still getting snapped off on bluff attempts a lot. This is also the most COMMON level for players who have been playing for a while, and if you adopt a "Tight" playing style, you can probably approach 'break even" or even show a small long term profit.

NOTE: In terms of "strict" level 2 considerations, jamming in on A3 is not really "good". The fact that there are a LOT of hands which are 45/55 against you (if you are ahead), a lot of hands which might "dominate" you, and very very few hands which will be WORSE than roughly 33% equity against you, means that you can probably FOLD 50 chips more readily than try to pick up 100 chips in a spot you are not completely "comfortable" playing due to your current level of poker thinking. The spots where it does start to become more of a "shove" hand is on the NEXT level...

Level 3 Thinking = You have now become familiar with the 'value" of various start hands you might have, and you also are aware of what your opponent's hand strenghth might be based upon his actions. This level is more "advanced" because it is here that you begin to think in terms of what your OPPONENT might think YOU have, and how he may re-act to that info.

While many players "peak" into level 3 thinking on occasion, it is VERY HARD to remain at that level, or above, on a consistent basis. This is the level where, when you conistently "think" here, that your choice of bluff spots become much more honed. Your ranging is also much more effective, since it will allow you to "think ahead" on what the villain MIGHT do in various spots, and the types of hands he'd "need" to do certain things.

So...

In THIS spot, because you are "surprised" the Villain called an all in while holding KJs, that says you "peaked" into level 3 type hinking ("ok, most of the time he will not have a hand that can call a shove, and since I wouldn't call this on anyhting but really STRONG hands, and since he is playing tightly too, he will not call very often, so this is a good spot to pick up 100 needed chips). BUT...

You also "missed" something somewhere which might have told you that this guy may not have even been CONSIDERING your hand, or your thinking, and was only relying on the strength of HIS hand for his decisions. To him, KJs was "enough" to go on...

If you "knew" that the villain was only looking at his hand strength, and if you "knew" that about the BEST situation you would find was a 55/45 type "race", and knowing that even really RAG hands like T4o are 60/40 vs you, PLUS knowing a ton of Aces (all of 'em A4+) and a ton of pp (all of em 33+) "dominate" you, are you STILL "happy" with jamming to steal A3o? Consider: versus a completely RANDOM RANGE (any 2 will do for villain), you have "just" 55.845% equity, versus his 44.155%...

(Note: because YOU are short too, I will tell you I'd be perfectly "happy" if I find myself in a 55/45 top end race right here. But you are tighter, and probably less risk accepting than I am in my play. That is why I ask YOU.) [/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
yeah I do kind of undersand but if im honest in my head his call was terrible therefore I got to change my style
Sometimes you gotta gamble when you are short...

if YOU were hugely deep stacked, and villain was 2nd or 3rd stack in the event, I agree with you. But if villain is as short as he is, I think I'm going a lot of time with his hand too...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
The way it panned out even if i had AA i would have lost..been running bad lately(or playing bad)........yet when I first started playing poker I was runnign super hot (or playing good)
This doesn't matter; or shouldn't matter (I should say).

"Luck" is transient, skill which allows you to make good decisions is permanent.

Work on your decisions by reviewing your hands after palying them, just like you are doing here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
Im up about $50 I think so the $1 doesnt affect my bankroll but I want to get better
This matters.
Up is good.

As long as you want to play on minimal deposits on line, then you must weigh the risk of putting "X" amount into a game, agaisnt the reward you are likely to derive based upon your SKILL level, and the effectiveness of your decisions.

You do not want to play so "high" you cannot keep playing long enough to allow your decisions to IMPROVE to the point you are a long term consistent winner.




Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post
So may I ask you this?...now iknow its all about arange of hand she is suppose dotput me on and Im supposed tput him on (although im not good at that side of the game in fact Im terrible I know that) so @ least I know ahuge area where I can improve so thats a godo thing

but lets say it wa slive game and I had accidentally flipped my cards over A3o as in the example and he has KJs (this is the actual hand he had btw)...is his call good????
Pre-flop, No.

Since you've outlined a situation with KNOWN information, your villain's "decision" is going to be "perfect" if he does whatever is positive ev of 1c+.

This is almost EXACTLY a 55/45 equity spot (54.994% you, 45.006% him).
This means he must have pot odds of 1.22 to 1 to be on 'break even" equity.

When you go all in, the Villain is faced with calling 966 for a chance to win 1116.
That is "only" 1.16 to 1 odds.

Strictly speaking, "perfect" info is almost impossible in poker, so if you say instead he is 95% "sure" you hold a hand like A3o, would it be a good call? I would say definately. !.22 to 1 is very VERY close to 1.16 to 1 odds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rolo834 View Post

So are you saying he should take a race say 40/60 because he only had 10bb?


ty for your feedback it sure give sme plenty to think about

rolo
No. He does not HAVE to take an underneath spot ever, until he is blinded/anted all in.

What I am saying is:

"When I am so short that my ability to exercise fold equity on my opponents is at risk, I am going to start considering lesser and lesser situations as "ok" to stand on.

The key is, I want to "stand" BEFORE the entirety of my Fold Equity is gone.

When I am in an extremely Tight and Aggressive table dynamic, quite far from the money, if I fall to 10BB and I am contemplating a blind on blind situation for all my chips, while I would not be HAPPY about it, I am ok if I do wind up in a 40/60 underneath situation for my "stand".

I feel that even at a tag table, a blind on blind situation with me holding KJs is quite likely to result in me having MORE than 40% equity in most cases, so I would probably be willing to call wih this more often than not, rather than allow my Fold Equity to go down even further."


Hope it helps...
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 07:17 PM
(#8)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
really JWK ?

I knew it was good to push

Like I said earlier Im ok at pushing its the calling or restealing part where im bad

So its good to call allins with 10bb wow even when only top3 get paid??????

Is there any maths to back this up please?

When my mind thinks A and you advise B its hard to change my mind

@JD im kinda at level 1 and a half then lol

wow I woul dhave thought level 1 or 2 not 3

oh wow im goingthru yorupost I didnt think i ever peeked into level 2 guess im a bit confused

Umm to be honest with you my cards were kinda irrelevaent I thought he would onlycall with a premium hand a monster let say top 5% or even tighter(this is why I was amazed)

hmm if i was hugely depestacked no way im shoving A3 into another biggish stack

Oh I agree with you 100% regarding the ...

The way it panned out even if i had AA i would have lost..been running bad lately(or playing bad)........yet when I first started playing poker I was runnign super hot (or playing good)

I realisedthat as I typed it kind of

Oh interesting so if he kne wmy cards you now agree his call wa sbad .that is what I thought all along so what changes it is the range he puts me on mainly or his stack or both?

Oops you just answered that but my way of thinking is he has no FE as im allin - this is why myresults been very mixed as half the game I think I do the perfect thing(but this could be thur luck) but the other half I do the worst thing lol

It could even be as im so mixed up that well im unsure how my brain thinks about it its either good half im good at and bad half im bad at but it could well be im bad at the god half and god atthe ba dhalf (do hopeyou knwo what im going on aboutand im not insane)
to sumarise it coudl well be when i win im lucky and yet when i lose im unlucky but it would be nice to know

oh @ "When I am in an extremely Tight and Aggressive table dynamic, quite far from the money, if I fall to 10BB and I am contemplating a blind on blind situation for all my chips, while I would not be HAPPY about it, I am ok if I do wind up in a 40/60 underneath situation for my "stand".

thsi is where you and me differ in our way of thinking and at th emoment you have mor eexpereince as if im not happy about doin it I wont do it

Oy yes talking it thru getting your perspective on it definitley helps but throws up more questions

I am currently reading my 3rd poker book first 2 were notvery good imo well 1 wa sok as it was for begginers - plus ive ordered 2 more--yet I do not like learning from books I woul dprefer videos

Can you recommend a good MTT book? nothing too advanced though some nic easy basics with a few intermediate concepts perhaps

Oh I did read Harringtons 1 and 2 long time ago but if you do not understand the poker lingo(language) and are a newbie theyhar dt learn..maybe if I rea dthem again I would learn more as there wa sprobably a lot of info I missed or didnt undertsand back then yet now may have a fighting chance with at least some of it

We moved house so will have to dig it out I have read online ace by scott fischman and super system by doyle brunson(hated this book sorry Doyle) butI do not play cash games only tournaments

Im still unsure why you like 40% I do get a lot of bad beats(not saying this was one) as I like to get my money in good but Im guessing it must be beause of his stack

So lets say I didnt flip my hand over he must be putting me on on average a worse hand than his or hes a level 1 player

I do doubt I peeked into level 3 im really not that good but I guess subconsciously or maybe by accident I did

So if you were playing this hand form both points of view you would have gone allin A3o and called wit KJs which is hard for me to get my head around it must be to do with those ranges

I only play 1 game at a time so does that come into it at all?? a s im guessing you play lots

Thank You

rolo
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 07:36 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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I think you are trying to make this really complex and it isnt...

Simplfication:

When thinking aobut jamming A3o into the BB in a blind on blind attle, you must consider the RANGE of the opponent.

This "range" will be effected not just by the hand value in the villains cards, but also by the SITUATION.

If you "asusme" that a villain on a tight range of under 15% will STAY that tight all the way thru the event, you are ineffective in your ranging...you've not accounted at all for a WIDENING due to stack depletion. You;ve also failed to accumt for his ability to recognize that YOUR range is widened due to the fact you have just 1 player left to act.

I gave you MY perceived range for his calls: A8+, any pp, Any 2 broadways down to QJ.
I then gave you my reasons for ranging that way.

So what YOU needed to do was account for the wideneing effects at work in this hand, BEFORE you decide to "go" on A3, and determine how well A3o plays agaisnt that widened range. ALSO, you msut consider how MANY hands are in your perceived villain's range, and how likely it is that villain does NOT hold one of these...that is your "fold equity".

See?

So lets use MY ranging, and check things out...

A3o versus a CALL on that range is: 36.43% equity
BUT...
That is a pretty "tight" 16.7% range, so he is FOLDING a bit under 85% of the time (if our range is effective).

If YOU were no short, then I would NOT have jammed this, simply because if I am called, I am probably in pretty marginal shape. (The only way I try to "sheriff" a palyer this light is if a loss represents 5% or less of my stack, AND a double up does not put his stack back to anywhere NEAR the table average.)

BUT...

Since you ARE short, and since you are going to see the villain fold a ton of his random hands (a bit under 85%), the 100 you'd gain from a fold is worth it enough to me that I would tend to risk it.

See?

Last edited by JDean; Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 07:40 PM..
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 09:58 PM
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10BB is where I normally start to take a stand. However, one thing I do look at in tourneys (especially ones I've played a number of times) is to see what type of chip stack you normally need to get ITM... and make that my first goal in the tourney. When you start to play tournies over and over, you'll see that there is normally a set number that will get you ITM.

With regard to books. Dave (TheLangolier) recommended me to get 'winning poker tournaments one hand at a time' vol 1 & 2. I'm about 2/3's of the way thru the first one and am learning some nice tricks from them... also alot about hand reading and how to handle different situations. They're basically something like doing a HA on thier own hands from three online pros... taking everything into account (chip stacks, reads, bet tendencies, etc). Hopefully I can finish them over the next couple of weeks... but the next couple months are going to be very, very busy for me and involve a bunch of travelling... so we'll see what happens.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 06:30 PM
(#11)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
@JWK cool thank you bearing in mind what im going to say to JD will I be able to understand them books or are they too advanced for me yet please ?

I asked Dave in training but he didnt give an answer as he had alot of questions and he said poker is evolving fast

@JD heres where i look a fool lol here goes...it is complex to me as im not good im very bad at ranging people also im notgood at position/odds/fold equity/ and lot sand lots of areas where I KNOW I have to improve and im trying to asatain the best way of going about this

I do understand your way of ranging - but this is an entirely new thing for me to try and understand having sai dthat upto where you said see I do understand ty

now then you said

..A3o versus a CALL on that range is: 36.43% equity
BUT...
That is a pretty "tight" 16.7% range, so he is FOLDING a bit under 85% of the time (if our range is effective).

and im unclear of how these numebrs come about im guessing im such a novice I need to improve a bit before I can grasp what you are stating so im clear Iknow you get the equitys in pokerstove but have noidea where 36.43% came from - when I did it i got 45% and also I do not understand where 16.7% came from either

Oh yes JD I definitly see why it was a shove

Now if we were ITM I accept his KJs a lot more I remeber once 3 handed shoving T8s aas a big stack in sb and th ebig blind called with AK and even with a hand as big as AK i had a lot of equity so Iguess Kjs has itsjust as we were nowhere near the payouts for top3 I was surprised as he had been so tight

Thanks for helping me both of you I hav eanother hand that i am querying but I think it is very very similar to this one so guess th eanswer will be same

rolo
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 06:50 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
those books are basically hand analyses from hands from 3 pros. They tell their thinking, what their range is for their opponents and why they reacted the way they did. It will help to know basic strategy and some odds first.... but they are ones that you can learn from the first time you see the hands... then go back thru them later and pick up other little things.
The three pros also play a bit different styles, so you can see the differences in the way they would play similar hands.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 06:58 PM
(#13)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
10BB is where I normally start to take a stand. However, one thing I do look at in tourneys (especially ones I've played a number of times) is to see what type of chip stack you normally need to get ITM... and make that my first goal in the tourney. When you start to play tournies over and over, you'll see that there is normally a set number that will get you ITM.

With regard to books. Dave (TheLangolier) recommended me to get 'winning poker tournaments one hand at a time' vol 1 & 2. I'm about 2/3's of the way thru the first one and am learning some nice tricks from them... also alot about hand reading and how to handle different situations. They're basically something like doing a HA on thier own hands from three online pros... taking everything into account (chip stacks, reads, bet tendencies, etc). Hopefully I can finish them over the next couple of weeks... but the next couple months are going to be very, very busy for me and involve a bunch of travelling... so we'll see what happens.
very good books, I have book 1, also very good is kill everyone
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 07:05 PM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Ok...

1) Go HERE: http://www.pokerstove.com/
Down load the "equity calculator" there.

This is a tool which let's you examine your decision processes to help you think aobut your hand strenght, and the ranges you DO put opponents on, while your practicing your "skills" in these arts.

I'm sure you've seen HAND CALCULATORS (like this one: http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-tool...r/texas-holdem ). These are ok if you want to use them to determine what the ACTUAL CHANCE you had to win in a hand was.

But if you only input the known hands, and if those hands were only known AFTER SHOWDOWN, you are only looking at "results". Doing that (only looking at results) is not an effective way to judge your poker decisions. To effective judge your decisions, you must compare your decision to onyl what you knew at the time the decision was made...see?

Poker Stove allows you to compare your hand (what you do know), against what you thought was LIKELIEST for your opponent to hold...which is a "range" of hands.

Playing around with Poker Stove to test your decisions will help you sharpen your ranging abilities.

2) First, learn some basic "facts" about Hold 'em hand situations that are common, and how far ahead/behind you will be in those types of situations.

I'm not tooting my own horn here (well, not too much!), but I think this: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...ive+start+hand is a good thread to read to start learning those types of situations.

....

Realistically Rolo, you must develop a "feel" for HOW certain hands play in Hold 'em, how often they win and how often they lose, before you are realy going to start improving your ranging abilities. Playing with an equity calculator is good for starting to get that "feel", as is memorizing your typical situations chart. After you get those things done, being able to see why I'd assign a range like QJ+, A8+, any pp becomes a lot more understandable.

Go look at those things, and try figuring out why I'd come up with that hand range.
Test each of the hands in my range versus your A3o...
Test each hand in my given range versus ALL Aces, up thru AT...

Look at the results, and come back to tell me your impressions...ok?
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 10:51 PM
(#15)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
@ JWK cool tym for those recommendations - I will try to gothru daves videos more slowly and let it sink in im not afast learner on complicated things (but at least once I got it it sticks lol)

i tend tofind , well at least the books I have read, that once you in the actual game the books havent helped me but I will take a look atthem onc ei have read my other books (will take months just so you know)

@roomik oh hi ty cool and hope you are okay

@JD Ihave pokerstove but had previously only used it for 1 hand versus 1 hand and after the betting/allin had been done and even then only sparingly Ive had it lets say 8 months and used it perhaps twice

I doubt you can put me on a range as I do not understand ranging lol as even with AA I would have pushed allin but would have lost (so usepokerstove not with actual results now I see ) soyou got to put them on range this I find extreemly difficult so that book be very useful but I can only afford so many books

yes I agree I think im trying to learn stage/step 2 or 3 when I do not know step 1 - causes a real headache

Oh btw I now see your 16.7% I thought you had been using the A3o v KJs and didnt understand

Even equities is a brand new subject for me..in the REM if I was good @R I think I could do the E(easy bit) but not sur eon M yet.but as it starst with R without knowledge of R im sunk

yes I havent clicked your tooting your own horn yet but feel free to toot as im sure you knw more than most and I have a very busy Sunday but I iwll play around with stove and give my impressions when I have time (it maybe tomorro)

Thank You all for help and pointing me in the right direction

rolo
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 11:15 PM
(#16)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
Hi all/JD I just looked at your link and the first part is terrific....have you memorised them all?

Imay pin them on my wall and after a long timeI wil know them

For example AK/AQ 70/30 ?

I only had time to glance thru the second part but I do not undertsand....As for "quality" of Straight, JT is "special" in that whenever it makes a 2 card straight, it will ALWAYS be the nut straight.


Read more: Typical Relative Hand Value Situations - PokerSchoolOnline Forum http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...#ixzz1UDM13XVq

I think this is incorrect as what if the flop comes 9QK turn is T and someone is holding AJ I guess you must mean on the flop

nighters rolo
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 01:35 AM
(#17)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
JT will always make a 3 board card nut straight.

I thought I was clear aobut that...

A 4th card on the board means you are now only using 1 card in your hand with JT.

Consider...

JT makes a straight using BOTH CARDS in these ways:

7 8 9...JT Nut Straight
8 9 Q..JT Nut Straight
9 Q K..JT Nut Straight
Q K A..JT Nut Straight

See?
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 12:09 PM
(#18)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
He's juast saying that if the board requires you to use both YOUR cards to make a str8 it will ALWAYS be the nuts whwether it be flop, turn, or river. Hope that helps stack em high! MT
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 05:53 PM
(#19)
rolo834's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,425
oic now

thanks
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 06:05 PM
(#20)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
BTW...

KQ/QJ ALSO always makes a nut straight (if both are used), but it makes FEWER straights than JT...

9 T J...KQ Nut straight
T J A...KQ Nut straight

AND

8 9 T...JQ Nut straight
9 T K...QJ Nut straight
T K A...QJ Nut straight

T9 does NOT always make the nut straight.

6 7 8...T9 Nut straight
7 8 J...T9 Nut straight
8 J Q...T9 Nut straight
T9...J Q K NOT the nut straight (AT is)....

See?
 

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