Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

Duplicate Poker Hand #1: THE RESULTS!

 
Old
Default
Duplicate Poker Hand #1: THE RESULTS! - Thu Aug 04, 2011, 02:02 AM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
This is what goes down:

We raise, making it 6500 to go (This fits with the vote, I am just assigning an exact number).

Lou smiles broadly, gives thumbs up to Candy on the rail.
Candy says "oooooooooooooooo", claps her hands very quickly and excitedly...
Lou then looks back at us and almost challengingly announces: "All In".

Obviously, with the nut hand I do not need to put up another poll, do I?

We CALL.

Lou Tables KQh, for 2nd nut flush.
Our AhTh makes the nut flush, for the win.

Result: we take down a pot of 26325, and increase our stack to 32975 (14575 net win).

Monica sighs loudly, and theatrically wipes her brow (in a joking manner). We hear her giggling and chatting up Bob, and she tells him "I just knew my A5 was not good there!"

NOW it is time to re-cap the action, and discuss...

PRE-FLOP:
Tom McEvoy is in the BB posting 150
Young Gun is in the SB, postin 75

Lou open limps from middle postion.
375 in pot.

Next player, Monica, raises, making it 600 to go.
975 in pot.

Party Bob folds.
We voted to CALL, holding AhTh.
1575 in pot.

Young Gun folds (33).
Tom McEvoy folds (A9o).

Lou CALLS.
2025 in pot.

FLOP: Ad 9h 3h

Lou CHECKS.

Monica C-Bets 1000

We vote to CALL.
3025 in pot.

Lou CALLS.
4025 in pot.

Turn comes Td.

Lou CHECKS.
Monica CHECKS.

We vote to CHECK.
4025 in pot.

RIVER: 5h

Lou BETS 3000
7025 in pot

Monica FOLDS.

We RAISE, making it 9500 to go.
16525 in pot

Lou goes ALL IN for 8150.
24675 in pot.

We call 1650.
26325 in pot

Lou Tables KQh
We show down ATh.
We win with the nut flush.

(sorry about edits. I noticed that a bit of a descrepancy had slipped in, because I forgot to add in Lou's 450 call of the flop bet, after he limped for 150. When I configure the action, I do not track the pot size, because the variations in "exact" numbers would change things greatly. All I do is create a "range" of actions for a small raise, min raise to under 1/3rd, a medium small of 1/3rd to 1/2, a medium large of 1/2 to 2/3rds, then a large raise above 2/3rds pot. As such, I need to manually fill in the pot amounts, and this time I messed it up! The pot sizing is correct in the re-cap, and I do not think it effected our decisions on each step.)

Let the discussions BEGIN!

I have questions:

1) Do you think we got the most value form this pot as we could have?
2) If no, where might we have gotten more value, and how?
3) Do you think we got "good value"?
4) If we did not river the nut hand, how much do you think we may have won in total?
5) Are there anythings you'd do DIFFERENTLY?

Last edited by JDean; Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 02:30 AM..
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 02:16 AM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
OK
IF WE HAD BET THE TURN WOULD HE HAVE CALLED RAISED OR FOLDED
AND ON THE RIVER IF HE HAD TEN OR JACK HIGH FLUSH WOULD HE HAVE CALLED THE LARGE RAISE OR WOULD HE HAVE CALLED A SMALL RAISE ???



 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 02:31 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
OK
IF WE HAD BET THE TURN WOULD HE HAVE CALLED RAISED OR FOLDED
AND ON THE RIVER IF HE HAD TEN OR JACK HIGH FLUSH WOULD HE HAVE CALLED THE LARGE RAISE OR WOULD HE HAVE CALLED A SMALL RAISE ???



If we had bet too large on the turn, Lou would have folded.

He would have called up to roughly 2/3rds pot bet on his flush draw and gut shot straight draw...

that is what calling stations do.

Since we did get max value from Lou, what do you think we might have done to get more value from MONICA?
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 03:00 AM
(#4)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
WELL I WANTED TO RAISE THE FLOP THAT WOULD HAVE GOTTEN MORE FROM HER



 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 04:23 AM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I think discussing how we could have gotten more from a specific hand is a potentially harmful exercise. Just because a particular action would have yielded a greater result from a specific set of hands doesn't make it good, because we can never see those hands, only imaginary ranges.

Also, I think that we definitely did not get max value from Lou. We got very lucky value from Lou. Had the river been any card besides a heart or a jack, we would not have gotten Lou's stack. Had the river been any card besides a heart, a jack, a queen, or a king, we would have gotten nothing. We technically sucked out here, because there were very few cards that would have gotten us any more money on the river. If Lou would have chased for a two-thirds pot bet on the turn, we should have made that bet. That would have been the most profitable line to take vs. Lou's range, imo.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 05:22 AM
(#6)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Thank you JD I enjoyed this exercise/learning, seeing other thought's/actions, I have lots to learn.
It sort of reminds me of when i first stated playing/learning Chess when i was about 5 with my dad, there was no way of me learning(except Chess books, but its not same i think as actually playing live) when dad was away working( fishing so he could be away for weeks) etc, It may sound stupid but I used to play chess against myself learning different strategy's/angles that would make me think how i could beat myself lol, it helped heaps in my game as id always get thrashed(hes good player) by my dad on chess board, then when i was about 9/10 years old i finally beat him, and I'm sure that was reason why.

I hope we can do more, if can.
Thank you again

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 07:26 PM.. Reason: Edited
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 07:39 AM
(#7)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I think yes actually we could have gotten a little bit more value out of monica with a small bet on the turn, but as we've seen, by the scenarios that did NOT happen that you posted, that's about all we were going to get from her.
and with that small bet, we also saw that lou is capable of a semi bluff raise, and we would have been forced into a check call mode unless we rivered big.edit: oops misread the did NOT happen senerios where lou called and didn't bet till he hit his flush on the river.we DID get max value from lou obviously sinse we now have all his chips,(in this particular senerio) if cards had rolle differently then no probably not max value from lou ,and could have extracted a little more from monica with a smallish turn bet.

I also think panicky is right that we weren't getting another dime out of lou without a very small number of cards hitting the river. if the river bricks we're.SOL
Off to work.... To be continued.....
OK... As per your questions...1) no 2) answer above 3)yes 4)to much river card dependant to know( if lou hit his K or Q we may have gotten him to call off a few more chips but not many) if it bricked not a dime more do we see. 5) I dont know that (I) would have done anything differently as all our actions were the ones I voted for. would we as a group have done things differently? we'll have to wait and see..

and thanks JD for all the work you put in on this. and by all means yes let's do some more. very entertaining and educational I think. I would also like to hear your thoughts on those questions. also your thoughts on our thoughts on earlier threads....would also like to hear the thoughts of the other hand analyzers,(Dave and JWK) as I know we all respect their opinions too. and thanks for not piping in earlier as I think this might have skewed the votes here. Thnx again, stack em high! MT

Last edited by mtnestegg; Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 10:56 AM.. Reason: Keep having random thoughts lol ahhhh the perils of having a bit of a chaotic mind
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 12:30 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I think discussing how we could have gotten more from a specific hand is a potentially harmful exercise. Just because a particular action would have yielded a greater result from a specific set of hands doesn't make it good, because we can never see those hands, only imaginary ranges.

Also, I think that we definitely did not get max value from Lou. We got very lucky value from Lou. Had the river been any card besides a heart or a jack, we would not have gotten Lou's stack. Had the river been any card besides a heart, a jack, a queen, or a king, we would have gotten nothing. We technically sucked out here, because there were very few cards that would have gotten us any more money on the river. If Lou would have chased for a two-thirds pot bet on the turn, we should have made that bet. That would have been the most profitable line to take vs. Lou's range, imo.
+1000, we really dropped the ball on maximizing value, but donked out with a lucky river.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 12:41 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
and with that small bet, we also saw that lou is capable of a semi bluff raise,
How are you coming to this conclusion? Lou didn't take any aggressive action what so ever until he held a monster, the 2nd nuts. I guarantee 100% he would call the turn and never, raise. Ever.

Semi-bluffs aren't in a stations arsenal.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 12:41 PM
(#10)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
It has been a really worthwhile exercise JD. Thanks for all your hard work and effort

Is their any chance of this continuing? I am away until late on Sunday so I am hoping there will be a new one for next week. The differing views and approaches have gave me a lot of food for thought so thanks to everyone else that contributed as well

Cheers,

TC
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 12:45 PM
(#11)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
This was definitely an interesting exercise. I really like opportunities like this to discuss strategy and the like. I also appreciate the effort JDean put in to this.

Just as suggestions for any future installments, like HighTimes said, having the present board visible in each thread would be useful, as would stack size info (I kept checking back for those two pieces of info specifically). Also, since revealing results for choices not chosen gives away information that has the potential to skew the thought process for the remainder of the hand, it might be best to leave those passages a mystery, at least until the end of the exercise. Just my thoughts on how the exercise could be improved. Great job on this one.

 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 01:10 PM
(#12)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
How are you coming to this conclusion? Lou didn't take any aggressive action what so ever until he held a monster, the 2nd nuts. I guarantee 100% he would call the turn and never, raise. Ever.

Semi-bluffs aren't in a stations arsenal.
if you will reread my post, you will see in my edit, that I misread 1 of j d's posts about one of the did NOT happen senerios and corrected it thereafter (probably should have erased it instead) sorry bout that...
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#13)
PSO-Staff's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 399
(Administrator)
Just want to be sure that JDEAN sees this post:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...d=1#post294702


Good Luck
PSO STAFF
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 02:11 PM
(#14)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
This was definitely an interesting exercise. I really like opportunities like this to discuss strategy and the like. I also appreciate the effort JDean put in to this.

Just as suggestions for any future installments, like HighTimes said, having the present board visible in each thread would be useful, as would stack size info (I kept checking back for those two pieces of info specifically). Also, since revealing results for choices not chosen gives away information that has the potential to skew the thought process for the remainder of the hand, it might be best to leave those passages a mystery, at least until the end of the exercise. Just my thoughts on how the exercise could be improved. Great job on this one.


+ a whole bunch!!
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 04:00 PM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post
I think discussing how we could have gotten more from a specific hand is a potentially harmful exercise. Just because a particular action would have yielded a greater result from a specific set of hands doesn't make it good, because we can never see those hands, only imaginary ranges.

Also, I think that we definitely did not get max value from Lou. We got very lucky value from Lou. Had the river been any card besides a heart or a jack, we would not have gotten Lou's stack. Had the river been any card besides a heart, a jack, a queen, or a king, we would have gotten nothing. We technically sucked out here, because there were very few cards that would have gotten us any more money on the river. If Lou would have chased for a two-thirds pot bet on the turn, we should have made that bet. That would have been the most profitable line to take vs. Lou's range, imo.
I tend to agree with your points in the main Panicky...

1) Talking aobut getitng max value from a specifc hand, when that hand is KNOWN is pretty harmful. Because one hand that might call may not be a call for another hand. The failing in that came form (I think) the fact I revealed TOO MUCH info. Next time I think we should ONLY reveal info that you would have at the table, until the very end.

2) As I was setting up the variopus scenarioes for this hand, I was trying to get across the thought that extracting max value in a hand when facing 2 opponents is largely dependant upon getitng the most from BOTH.

Obviously on the riv, Lou is stacking to us if we have managed to keep him around (it was not going to be hugely difficult to keep him around though). So the "trick" lie in getting the max from Monica's top pair/weak kicker. But JUST as "obvious" is the fact we are only seeing that flush fill for us less than 35% of the time (since Lou had 2 hearts as well). So you do have GREAT points...

DELAYING our "value" in that pot HURTS our overall value a lot.

Our voted live was UBER PASSIVE (in my opinion), and really let Monica off the hook especially.

The thing that is REALLY good to note though Panicky...it is "easy" to over look how much value was lost in a hand when you stack a deep stacked opponent. If we had run into the EXACT same hand in real life, and if we stacked Lou, how many of us would even have a PASSING THOUGHT about how much we might have left on the table?

Realistically, I think we can conservatively say we "denied" ourselves at least 2500 to 4k from EACH player here. That is roughly 5k to 8k, or roughly 1/3rd to a bit over 1/2 of what we actually WON...and we "won" a pretty big pot.

that is DEFINATELY something to think aobut when you are reviewing your hands after playing...
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 04:24 PM
(#16)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Thanks all for the kind thoughts; I am willing to do another of these certainly, or else I would not have fleshed out ALL the "biographies" for the entire table.

I know the "reusult" of when we did this in a Ventrilo Study group about 4 years ago was that our "normal" session length of 2 hours stretched to over 6 hours, as the group kept wanting to go through more and more hands (we did 6 altogether).

I think this method of looking at a hand can be really helpful because it gives a "feel" for the way a hand develops in real time play, and allows a structured format that can help players better improve their "think ahead" abilities. It is also pretty "flexible" insofar as it allows a "group think" dynamic to work on the decisions, and the effects of those decisions can change the results quite a bit sometimes. So I'm glad everyone seemed to enjoy the exercise...

One note:

I do also see there were quite a fewer "lurkers" watching this thread develop. Even if you factor in that at least SOME of the "views" were coming via "re-looks" at older threads to remind them of actions, there were a LOT move viewers than votes...and CERTAINLY more viewers than discussion posts.

For anyone following along, even if you feel you are "too new", or do not "know enough" to put out a post or to vote on a decision, there is no need to feel that at all!

One of the nice things about this sort of exercise is that you tend to get a good "feel" for playing a poker hand using reads and info BEYOND just your cards, but with nothing "on the line". The act of giving you more info in a hand than you might normally have (if you are a newer player) gives you a chance to start getting the hang of USING that sort of info, even if you do not (yet) know how to "collect" that info during your actual play. That practice will pay you dividends down the road, when you ARE better able to collect the info that you see n the "reads" post...

So by all means, VOTE! POST! Do not be "worried" that your opinion doesn't matter, or will be "laughed at". Doing so can really only help YOU...
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 05:28 PM
(#17)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
By nitting up and not betting the turn we missed value from Monica, those 2,000+ chips we could win from her on the turn add up in the long term. We got decent value due to the fact we hit flush over flush on the river. However, had we not hit the flush I think we could probably have gotten a 1/2 pot bet called by Monica on the river, I think we would win around 6,800 chips total. If I were dealt this spot in a real game, I think I would have folded preflop, but as we played it I would have definitely bet the turn.

Also want to thank JDean for his hard work in putting this together. This is a great way to study and discuss poker, big props to you.
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 05:45 PM
(#18)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I would also like to thank ALL the participants for all the different insite whether we agree or disagree, all your thoughts are appreciated and respected. And as a side note thnx again to dave who took the time after the fact to interject his oppinions and hope you took my comment on piping in as the compliment it was intended to be........ok.....nnnnnnnext! lol
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 07:37 PM
(#19)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0HighTimes0 View Post
Thank you JD I enjoyed this exercise/learning, seeing other thought's/actions, I have lots to learn.
It sort of reminds me of when i first stated playing/learning Chess when i was about 5 with my dad, there was no way of me learning(except Chess books, but its not same i think as actually playing live) when dad was away working( fishing so he could be away for weeks) etc, It may sound stupid but I used to play chess against myself learning different strategy's/angles that would make me think how i could beat myself lol, it helped heaps in my game as id always get thrashed(hes good player) by my dad on chess board, then when i was about 9/10 years old i finally beat him, and I'm sure that was reason why.

I hope we can do more, if can.
Thank you again
My point is that learning different strategy's/angles can be beneficial in learning any game, and in life in general, as we are our best teachers
Egyptian Proverbs:
" EXPERIENCE WILL SHOW YOU, A MASTER CAN ONLY POINT THE WAY"
" NOT THE GREATEST MASTER CAN GO EVEN ONE STEP FOR HIS DISCIPLE"
"UNDERSTANDING DEVELOPS BY DEGREES"
"NO ONE WILL LEARN ANYTHING WHICH THEY ARE NOT RIPE"
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 04, 2011, 08:11 PM
(#20)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
2) As I was setting up the variopus scenarioes for this hand, I was trying to get across the thought that extracting max value in a hand when facing 2 opponents is largely dependant upon getitng the most from BOTH.
Not necessarily. Well, yes and no. What I mean is, besides stack sizes which aren't an issue here (obv if one is really short and we're deep with the other, we're looking at the deep stack only for max value since they're the only one that can give it), we also need to consider their ranges and who is most likely to be giving us value with worse. It is very important to consider them both in that equation though.

In this case, Lou is our primary target. He's a station, and is going to call with many weaker hands that don't warrant it. Monica is only going to give us action on the turn if she has an ace, and her range consists of hands that don't contain an ace as well. In fact even checking behind the turn I'm not sure she'd pay us on the river with a hand like JJ. Which is another argument for betting the turn... she won't pay us there either with a pocket pair, but if she's never going to put another chip in without improving to a set, then letting her see the river allows her to realize her equity by giving her a freeroll on the 2 outter. This may be worth the risk vs. an opponent who will then bluff catch our river bet, but there's nothing in it for us if they won't ever call unless they improve. However in the case of this hand betting the turn to extract value from the fish Lou is also congruent with extracting value from Monica's Ax hands.

Ok, I'll get off my please bet the turn soapbox now.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com