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Standard shove?

 
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Standard shove? - Thu Aug 04, 2011, 09:39 AM
(#1)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Just read an earlier thread were the evaluator talked about single table SnG's being different to MTT's as you have to consider your stack compared to others, I've never really thought about this before and now I'm doubting whether this was a good shove.

Right so this is a $3.50 SnG single table, overall the table been fairly tight two of the looser players were busted quite early on and the play has been pretty standard since. I have a very tight image mainly cause I've been so card dead i did lose a large chunk calling off an all in with my AQs but then doubled up with my pocket 10's making quads later on, These are the only two showdown I've had so I've shown myself to be tight, However i did just open fold to a shove and one call (the villian being the caller and winning with 6's) but i didn't really think this changes my image. Anyway to the hand I'm UTG and wake up with 7's and 13 BB pretty standard shove as the short stack or not?

Sorry, this hand was deleted by its owner

Is this a standard shove and am I just over thinking it because I lost or should I have played it differently?

Last edited by Croyd93; Thu Aug 04, 2011 at 09:44 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 11:35 AM
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topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I think shoving 7s UTG is too loose at this stage. You have the whole table to act after you and if anyone wakes with a decent hand they will call especially since you are the small stack.

The earlier hand where you opened and folded to a shove might make the other players feel you are opening light, so I probably would have limped here hoping to see a flop. If the villain had raised in that event I probably would have folded. If i had seen the flop, two overcards and a flush draw is not a good board for sevens and it would be an easy fold to any action.

Just my thoughts, probably completely wrong, and I have seen many people make a stand with small/medium pocket pairs and take down the pot.

It will be interesting to hear the more erudite players chip in.

TC
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 01:55 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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I would have made a standard opening bet, instead of shoving. If you immediately shove, the only action you're going to get is from hands that have you beat (or best case you're in a coin-flip).

If you had less chips, then shoving with them would be ok, but I think you've got a few too many chips to open-shove with 7's.
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 05:29 PM
(#4)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
Thanks for the advice guys find these posts really useful I'm learning a lot through these.

Anyway I didn't really think about the people behind me and getting called by better hands, definitely need to slow down with my decisions and try not to panic when I'm short. And you say to make a standard open, but if i do and got 3-bet then what line of action would i take would i best folding? Also I have always learned that a short stack is anything below 15BB's so is this wrong for SnG's or do i just need to learn better opening ranges and how to play them, and one more thing if this was i a MTT with 13BB and the same position how would you play this?
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 06:01 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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normally I use 10BB as the point where you're a short stack.

If you use a std open and get 3-bet... then it's going to be up to your reads on the opponent as to whether to fold or call. It'll totally depend on reads... may be a fold, may be a call.
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 07:23 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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This situation is a lot tougher than it appears on the surface...

Jamming 13BB on this stack distribution in an SNG is pretty "value owning" to you; by that I mean you are folding out "worse" and only getting called by better generally, except MAYBE AK or AQ. BUT...

1) You have a hand which will "continuable" on very FEW boards.

Well over 80% of the time at LEAST 1 over card will flop (and no set for you), and you will only flop a set 1 time in 8.5.
(see chart here: http://www.freepokertraining.com/training/overcards.asp )

This means ANY pot entry for less than an all-in is far more often resultig in you FOLDING on the flop, thus depleting your short stack even more, OR attempting to play "post flop" poker in what figures to be a tricky situation.

2) You have a hand which is ahead of ANY un-paired hand which might call you.

Since you are as short as you are here, you really do not MIND courting "races" for all your chips if you are the one holding the pp.

3) Picking up just the blinds results in more than a 10% chip up for you, and "buys" you another orbit.

The amount the binds represent as a percent of your stack is starting to climb, so that means it is starting to be "worth" more and more to you to JUSTwin the binds.

4) Since we are acting "early" in the hand, we have a greater chance someone will "wake up" with a hand behind us and call or raise.

This means if we enter for a limp, we are increasing our chance of getting raised, thus folding us out since we elected to "go cheap" and not commit ourselves with our entry, OR playing a post flop pot in a tricky situation.

This also means if we raise STANADARD, and get 3Bet, we are not likely to have enough chips to deny odds for a call; so we are going to have to "live and die" on our hand anyway, or fold off a good bit of our stack. Same goes for any calls; we are palying post flop in a tricky spot.

If we Jam pre-flop to avoid post flop stickiness, we are putting ourselves into a situation where we get called mostly by better, and fold out worse...thus costing ourselves value...

GACK!

As you can probably tell from that overview I put up, there are a LOT of things we might think about that result in us having internal "conflicts" about our decisions. Now let's try putting some clarity into our thinking...

FIRST:

We know we cannot play post flop very well at all on our stack.

13BB cannot limp, then C-Bet, then fire a 2nd barrel without at some point laying good odds to a villain.

We are not going to see enough "good flops" to like going with a "stop and go" (where we limp then shove on ANY flop).

Making any kind of standard raise, even "just a raise to 250 to go, will pretty much have us thinking the same things...

So this means we are pretty much in a "Jam or Fold" situation on our stack.

(Sorry JWK, I do not agree with making any standard open raise. If we get raised ehind, we are folding off MORE, or standing in an even WORSE situation than an open jam. If you are comfortable palying a very short stack, then you MIGHT think about an open raise then fold of 2.5BB or so, but to me, that is a bit too "spew-y" this short.)

That adds some clarity...

SECOND:

We must assess our table reads to recognize who, and how many of the stacks here MIGHT call us on weaker "race" cards" like KQ/KJ/QJ/AT etc.

If there are a LOT of such players at our table, then the chance we might get called TWICE by such hands, thus forcing us to face as many as 4 over cards, maybe argues for a FOLD.

If there is no one, (or maybe only 1 player) who might make such calls, then the chance we get called ONLY by better hands goes up, but the much lower frequency of such hands probably still argues that we go for it now. Afterall, that uber-tight a calling range by all the table will mean we "should" be shoving more to pick up pots when it is folded to us in LP. 77 should have "ok" equity in such a tight dynamic that we will fold out a lot of hands often enough to MAYBE justify it here.

So you gotta tell us what your table dynamic read was to assign the "direction" we might go with this. Saying things like 'fairly tight" or "standard" isn;t really as helpful as telling us what HANDS you;ve seen shown down, and what actiosn those hands were shown in, see?

The key things what I'm saying are designed to help you suss thru your decision though, so what actually "happened", or what was "at work" in the hand doesn;t really change things much for the purpose of what I'm writing (since I give both sides).

THIRD:

Do you feel a "need" to double up NOW for some VALID reason?

By this, I mean to ask "do you feel the entire table is ladder climbing HARD now, so your chances to get ITM by continuing overly tightly are really low?"

If there is even an inkling of increased action at the table, You probably have enough chips to pay an orbit, and maybe 2, before you "must" start looking at things in terms of desperation (due to falling fold equity in your stack).

If the table is uber-locked down though, and there are a lot of "walks" happening, then seeking the chance for chip ups, even small chip ups, so you move off the "bottom" of the pile NOW before blinds increase, is not really "terrible".

So...

HERE IS WHAT I WOULD DO (given all info together):

I FOLD.

I also start opening my steal range a LOT MORE in late position.

To me, this is simply too light a hand to like my options much on a somewhat tight table, but one that does not seem to be UBER NITTY per your info. If I were shorter, as 10 or less BB, then I probably do not pass this spot up now. Even if the blinds are going to increase before my likely BB hand (under a minute),I probably do not pass this up. But without that knowledge, I think I can "afford" 150 to go thru the current orbit without putting myself in a "stand" spot on 77 with all the table to act behind me.
 
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Thu Aug 04, 2011, 10:05 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
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I also start opening my steal range a LOT MORE in late position.

JD, I agree with that 100%
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 07:18 AM
(#8)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
This is some really good advice took me a few reads to fully understand everything that you said, but i think I've got to grips with your reasoning and what to be considering when deciding whether to make a shove or not. I think the table on the whole was playing tight poker apart from the villain who was progressively becoming more loose opening more and more pots. I think looking back at the hand now it should have been a fold as the majority of the time i was only going to get called by a better hand.

This advice is extremely good especially for me as at the moment i am finding myself to be the short stack a lot. For example last night i busted from a final table (SnG) after grinding the short stack for over an hour, I posted in the forum as i started to doubt my play (as at first i thought i was just running bad) and after some reassuring words someone suggested that i review my hand histories and see if i am just being too nitty at the start of the tournament or if the cards just weren't coming my way.

I think this would be a very good idea for me however i have never reviewed more than a couple of hands at a time and don't really know what to look for, would you be able to give me some advice and pointers to help me review my hands and so I can see if i am being too tight and if i need to open up my game more and be more aggressive at the beginning of the tournament, if this is a bit too much to ask don't worry about it but i would find this very useful so if you could many thanks Also thanks for your advice it provided some great insight into what i should be thinking before making a shove
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 09:13 AM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Croyd93 View Post
I think this would be a very good idea for me however i have never reviewed more than a couple of hands at a time and don't really know what to look for, would you be able to give me some advice and pointers to help me review my hands and so I can see if i am being too tight and if i need to open up my game more and be more aggressive at the beginning of the tournament
That is the exact opposite of what you want to do! Loose early is a recipe for disaster. You want to open your game up late in a tourney, not early. One thing you can look for is to see how many flops you are seeing (flop %). The average should be in the 20% range (10-15% if you're not getting cards, 20-25% if you are getting great cards). Early in a tourney, it should be even lower than that... later, it should be higher. Opening up more will also depend on your chip stack, as the less BB's you have left, the more hands you'll need to be pushing with.
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 10:22 AM
(#10)
Croyd93's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 639
52 hands played and saw flop:
- 0 times out of 7 while in small blind (0%)
- 3 times out of 7 while in big blind (43%)
- 4 times out of 38 in other positions (11%)
- a total of 7 times out of 52 (13%)

These are my stats for this SnG, so I'm playing well below the average of 20% of hands but does this mean I'm just not hitting any cards or am too nitty or am I being too nitty as was suggested in my other post?

And I've always thought that tight was better at the beginning as well but it was just someone suggested last night that i look at my hand history for some of the games I've played and see if I'm being too tight.

Thanks for the help
 
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Sat Aug 06, 2011, 03:30 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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WAY too many calls out of the SB...especially if those came early!
 

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