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Duplicate Poker Hand #2: PRE-FLOP (and table reads)

View Poll Results: What do you do with Ac Ks here?
FOLD 0 0%
CALL 12 60.00%
Raise Small: 2500 to 3250 to go. 1 5.00%
Raise Medium: 3251 to 4000 to go. 3 15.00%
Raise Medium/Large: 4001 to 6750 to go. 3 15.00%
Raise Large: 6751 to ALL IN to go. 1 5.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

 
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Duplicate Poker Hand #2: PRE-FLOP (and table reads) - Thu Aug 04, 2011, 11:44 PM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Note: What follows is all the info you will need to configure your decisions in the play of the hand.

You will receive information on each of your opponents.
This information is based on PAST PATTERNS, things you may have "picked up on" at your table. Do not "assume" all information is "perfect".

If you feel a vital piece of information about an opponent is "lacking", then please consider your poker reads to be incomplete per that point.

Please consider this an exercise in "role playing", where you are trying your best to put yourself into the situation as presented.

You are to base your play decisions on what you would do in an ACTUAL poker MTT.

Ceratin information about YOU, and your "play" in this event will be "created" as well.

Items such as your financial status will be created so that everyone attempting this exercise will be "equal" in that regard; how you let that finiancial situation effect your decision process is up to you.

Also, information about hands you "played", in between the hands we will review, will be created. This is so you can make some judgements about how "aware" Villains at your table may re-act to those past plays in the hand currently under review.

As each "live" person in this exercise may have a particular play style, each of those styles would confer an "image". Since these images may differ widely, again in order to "level" the data that everyone has for use, the interim hands will be made up of certain plays you CANNOT "control".


NOTE #2:
We will be going with a 2-day "turn around" on posting the next street for this one; that way we can get maximum discussion in, and also more people can get votes posted.

A lot of the info stays the same, but since we are a little farther along in the event, obviously we have some different info too.

Here goes!

Situation:

"META GAME" INFO (on You):
You have recently signed a contract with a wealthy Billionaire, whereby he will "stake" you to a $300,000 bank roll for use as Buy In's to MTT across the country.

In return, you will pay 60% of all PROFITS (over the buy in, the original BI is "rolled over" for use again) to your "horse". You are obligated to play until you have entred 100 MTT, or until the bank roll has reached $0.

Additionally, you will be given a drawing account, consisting of cash over and above your BR amount to pay hotel and travel expenses, a per diem for meals etc of $500, as well as a drawing account of $1000 per week. Any amount spent for these expenses will be deducted from the profits of an event prior to the 60/40 division. Taxes will be paid prior to profit division as well.

You have arrived 3 days ago at the "Mississippi Classic" a $10k BI main event held at the Grand Casino in Tunica Missippi (a fictional event).

Thus far you have taken your 1st week draw of $1000, you have received $1500 in per diem expenses, and you have paid $150 in hotel room expenses. You live in Tunica, so you incurred no re-imbursable travel expenses, and you are staying at the hotel to avoid a 20 mile commute.

MTT STRUSTURE INFO:

The Blinds Structure is per this link:
http://www.wsop.com/tourney/structur...81&groupid=607

Prize Pool pay outs are 2 times those shown in this link:
http://www.wsop.com/tournaments/payo...d=607&tid=7281

There were 928 entrants.
614 players remain.
Average chip stack = 22671

Blinds = 200/400, 50 chip ante
Start Stacks = 15,000
Blind levels = 2 hours
Currently in Level 6, with 35 minutes until end of day 1.

You have been seated at the same table since the start of the event.
1 player busted out when his KK ran into AA held by the player in currently in Seat 3.
Preflop action went to a 4Bet which was called by Seat 3.
Action on the flop then saw a 5Bet shove by the busted player, which was again called by Seat 3.
Seat 3's top set held.

You busted a player in Seat #6 back in level 3.
You rivered a Nut flush, versus his KQ flush.

No one else has busted off your table.

Information you have on the players currently at your table is:

SEAT #1:
Stack: 13400
You've tagged this player "Young Gun" in your mind.
He is a 20-something hoodie wearing uber-aggro type.

He seems to lack a working knowledge of postion, and he raises near to a standard 2.3 x BB whenever he enters first to act, and generally (about 75% of the time) 3Bets to enter over raises rather than simply calling along.

His standard C-Bet frequency is quite high, near "certain", and he seems to bet half pot pretty consistently on continuation as an open.

He tends to raise open bets in front of him quite a lot, doing so usually for about 1.5 times the amount of the open bet on the flop.

If he is drawing weakly, or very weakly "made", he tends to fold later streets quite often, and will tend to call only top pair/decent kicker hands+ on the turn (or later).

In the first level he played roughly 30% to 40% of all hands, and generally won small pots, and lost a couple large ones.

From the start of Level 2 or so, all through level 3, he had toned down his pot entries somewhat, but was still entering roughly 25% of all hands, regardless of position.

He had fallen to roughly 6000 in chips, and really started to "lock down" as Level 4 began. From that point, you've really only seen him play 4 hands:

3 Times he 3Bet somewhat large, and took it down without going to the flop

1 Time he tabled AA face up when seat 4 folded to his turn bet on a Q high, 2 diamond board (YG 3Bet pre for 2 times seat 4's open raise of 3BB, had led the flop for about 60%, then fired the same on the turn).

YG still has not spoken a single word during the entire event thus far, and seems to be a very quiet player.

SEAT #2:
Stack: 33000
Tom McEvoy, winner of the WSOP ME in 1983.

He has been somewhat quiet, but very polite.
He is a past Main Event winner with a well known reputation of extreme tightness.

McEvoy doubled through seat #5 soon after that player was seated at your table (in level 4).

McEvoy raised to open from middle position with QQ, then flat called a 3Bet pre-flop.

He led for 1/2 pot on a Jack high flop, which the opponent called.

McEvoy led the turn for half pot again when he spiked a queen, and moved all in for roughly 8k more when his opponent raised him 2 times his turn open.

The opponent called with a set of Jacks, and McEvoy set of Q's held up.

Other than this, many pots versus McEvoy have not even gone to the flop, and he is maintaining around a 5% to 8% VPIP at most by your best guess. As the blinds have increased, Tom has seemed to "open" his game a little...very little!

The first hand he showed down was AKs, and he has entered maybe 13 to 15 total pots through the entire event (almost 12 hours).

Other than AKs, he has shown down QQ (see above), 99 with a flopped set (he saw the flop on the button), and AQo.

The rest of his hands did not go to showdown.

SEAT #3:
Stack: 27100
You've tagged this player "School Teacher Joe" in your mind.

Not only does he look like a school teacher, middle 30's to early 40's, glasses, slightly balding, and not only is his name Joe (learned through casual chit chat), but he IS a school teacher. Joe has also shown a habit of making comments about whether or not opponents had pot odds to stay in the hand.

Joe doubled up the very first hand of the tourney when he caught AA vs. KK and both he and his opponent flopped a set.

Thereafter Joe has not played more than around 10% to 15% of his hands, and most of those came in position.

His early position entry range is quite "snug", and he opens slightly wider from MP.

He will not call into pots for raises in LP extremely lightly though, even with his large stack, but in small raised multi-way pots, he has shown a tendency to speculate a little bit with suited connectors and small pairs. He does this with calls almost exclusively.

His pre-flop entry raise is always the same amount, making it 3BB to go, plus 1 for each limper, and his C-Bets always tend to be for half the pot. Now that antes have started, he adds a small amount to account for those as well.

His post flop play is very stragiht forward, with about 2/3rds C-bet frequency if he has the betting lead, and a reasonable tendency to fold his misses to C-Bets.

Overall, School Teacher Joe plays a very ABC game, both pre flop and post flop, and he is pretty neutral in his agression vs. passivity matrix.

This has pretty much been the pattern you've seen Joe have since the very start of the event, and it hasn't varied much at all.

Joe's stack has fallen slightly, as it appears to you that Ivan might be targetting Joe a bit more now that YG has "slowed down".

Joe does not appear to be making any adjustments for this fact though.

SEAT #4:
Stack: 36950
You've tagged this player "Ivan the Invincable" in your mind.
He is a Russian born player in his late 20's or early 30's, who speaks broken english, and plays a highly aggressive game.

His start standards are generally strong, and he changes gears very well.

He seems to be entering about 15% to 20% of pots, almost always for a raise or 3Bet, even with his weaker holdings (but usually in position on these).

He has exhibited very solid selective aggression skills, and has tended to "target" Young Gun earlier on whenever YG enters oop for a raise, but now Ivan seems to be focusing more on School Teacher Joe. Ivan still is sitting a little bit on the blinds of Tom McEvoy.

He is still not "wild" by any means, and you still maintain solid respect for him.

Ivan has been playing good, smart, aggressive poker, but the timing tell you were tracking earlier on has solidified for you: you are roughly 85 to 90% "sure" it is reliable and not a reverse tell. Now, you are simply waiting for a spot where you might be able to use this against Ivan.

(The timing tell is that Ivan seems to bet slightly quicker when drawing, than he will when "made" in a draw board situation)

SEAT #5:
Stack: 19800
You've tagged this player "Medium Mike" in your mind.
Mike is a late 20's guy, dressed in pretty typical poker wear of a tee shirt and comfortable slacks. He isn't flashy in his demeanor or table talk at all, and just seems to be an amiable sort who is not entirely "out of place" playing this buy in level.

Through chit chat at the table, you've learned Mike is a pretty regular player at the WSOP Cirucit events, and WPT type events, but you've also gotten the impression he has yet to have make a "big score" although he has cashed reasonably often. Mike tends to play the smaller sub events on straight buy's, and also plays main events generally when he can sattelite in.

He came to the table with a pretty decent stack or around 40k in level 4, and very quickly lost a large pot to Tom McEvoy in a tough set over set spot.

Mike's reaction to this loss was to say to Tom (with a smile) "I guess that's how you win the big ones, eh Tom?" and sort of accepted his loss as part of poker (in your opinion).

Mike is playing about 15% to 20% of pots, and is not really loose nor tight.

His C-Bet tendencies are pretty standard as well, with nothing glaringly "obvious" about his play.

He MAY play draws a little bit more passively than you'd think is good, especially in position, but the single example of that you saw shown down is not enough to be certain.

SEAT #6:
Stack: 22000
You've tagged this player "Maniac Martha" in your mind.
Martha is a loud and boisterous lady in her 40's, wearing casual and comfortable clothes of good quality, and who cackles loudly when she wins, snarls and huffs at players when she loses, and who, in general, let's recent events effect her table demeanor and actions (so it seems to you). As such, you are paying quite close attention to her recent plays, and are looking for spots to win chips against her.

Martha does not mind moving chips around much at all, and generally enters for a 4BB type raise when she opens.

She tends to call much more than 3Bet though, and commonly bets full pot amounts on continuation.

Martha also tends to "spew" information about what she thinks of opponents in a hand while she is playing, often making comments about what she thinks they have in heads up spots.

Martha's stack has yo-yo'ed from a high of almost 50k, to a low of around 9k, and has shown a tendency to "dis-believe" an opponent's hand strength when she holds something like top pair/good kicker.

In the past hour you have seen Ivan win a decent pot against her with bottom set on a 2 heart board, which ended with 4 hearts on board, and you've seen her snap off (what she called a "bluff") by Party Bob when he held AJ versus her AQ.

She also turned a straight against Monica to win a pot versus her flop of top/top. You folded JJ to her pot size C-Bet after flatting her 4BB pre flop raise in position, when the board came AQ7 rainbow.

So all in all, Martha is trending upwards right now on her stack, and is in a more laughing and jovial mood.

Seat #7:
Stack: 10100
You've tagged this player "Giggling Monica" in your mind.
Monica is a 20's-something brunette who is pretty cute. She is wearing a low cut top, and had been using a flirty attitude earlier in the event. Things have not been going Monica's way lately, and she has stopped a lot of the giggling and flirting; although she is still smiling a little bit at Party Bob's comments, you get the feeling she is trying to be "polite" and has really stopped trying to play on a "Dumb Girl" image.

She started off with a pretty snug range, showing down only 2 hands in the first hour (AKs and QQ, both wins), and entering maybe 10% of the hands.

She was viciously targetting the player you busted, with constant iso raises, but after you busted Lou, there has not appeared to have been another available "pigeon" to cross Monica's Radar.

Over the last 45 minutes or so, you have started to sense that Monica might be "pressing" a little bit to re-build her stack. She is now entering maybe 20% of hands, mostly for calls rather than raises (although she is still more likely to open raise to 2.5BB or 3BB on entry, rather than limp)

Back in early level 2, you called her 3x raise from MP while holding 99, and saw a flop of KQ4 rainbow. She C-Bet 2/3rds the pot, and you let your hand go.

A 2/3rds type C-Bet appears to be pretty "standard" for her, and a couple of times she has even C-Bet for full pot.

In the last 2.5 hours, You've seen her call all the way to the river on a 2 club board versus YG, seen her 3Bet Martha on a flop only to fold when Martha did not slow down by betting 3/4ths pot on the turn lead, and you saw her call to the river versus Party Bob, and lose to Bob's AK with her ATo. You have additionally seen Monica call into 5 raised pots, only to fold to a C-bet.

(This is in addition to the loss to Martha's straight while holding top/top)

Seat #8:
Stack: 19250
You've tagged this player "Party Bob" in your mind.
Bob has continued his drinking, and is now pretty toasted.
Bob is a late 30's male, wearing a polo shirt and nice slacks. He has been flirting with Monica the whole way; she seems to be a little bored with it by now.

Bob is making really wild plays, like shoving all in over Tom McEvoy's play (a HUGE pot over bet!) then tabling AA face up, and also turn shoving a 3rd spade on the board versus YG, then showing a total Airball bluff with 84o. He has done this same pattern 5 times total over the last 6 hours, and has not been to show down once.

If anything, Bob is playing TIGHTER than anyone (except maybe McEvoy), and it is almost like he is simply playing "all in or fold" poker. He is picking up very small pots with BIG chip moves when he does play, and no one (yet) has shown a willingness to "sheriff" his big shoves.

He definately appears drunk, so his post flop decisions (if he plays post flop) are probably highly suspect.

Seat #9:
Stack: 44925
YOU.

You started playing the event pretty tightly, entering only on premium holdings, and for the first hour and a half you only showed down AKo and JJ.

Around the 3 hour mark, you had been increasing your 3Bet tendencies a little, especially against Lou (now gone), Young Gun, and to a lesser extent School Teacher Joe. You managed to pick up a fat pot with ATs when you knocked out Lou, and thereafter your wins have tended to out-number your losses in total numbers (as well as chip pick ups), but there have been no really "remarkable" showdowns.

You did win semi-decent pots with a top/top hand (Versus YG), and with a flopped straight (versus School Teacher Joe). You have won maybe 8 or 10 hands without showdown also (since you busted Lou).

You still feel that your image at the table is of a dangerous TAG type, who will be selectivly aggressive, and play with little fear. You have not really put a foot "wrong" in the event yet, so you feel you carry a good bit of respect amongst most of your opponents.

THESE ARE YOR READS!
(note: a lot of these are un-necessary for the first hand we will play out. But later on, different players will be in action on other hand, so I provide them all to give you "maximum feel" for your table.)

THE ACTION:

BIG BLIND: YOU (in Seat 9), posts 400 (44475 behind)
SMALL BLIND: "Party Bob" (in Seat 8), posts 200 (19000 behind)
POT = 1050 (SB and BB + 450 in antes)

UTG Seat 1, Young Gun FOLDS
Next, Seat 2, Tom McEvoy FOLDS
Next, Seat 3, School Teacher Joe looks left, then RAISES, making it 1250 to go.
(Joe has 25800 behind)
Pot = 2300

Next, Seat 4, Invinceable Ivan CALLS 1250.
(Ivan has 35650 behind)
Pot = 3550

Next, Seat 5, Medium Mike FOLDS

Next, Seat 6, Maniac Martha looks at Joe and says, "HA! You are so tight that when you fart it comes out in dust clouds! Ha! Ha! Ha! I warn you, I WILL call you next time on this though, so be AFRAID!" She FOLDS.

Next, Seat 7, Giggling Monica seems to paise a second to think, she glances at her chip stack, then FOLDS.

Next SMALL BLIND, Seat 8, Party Bob sways little bit in his seat. He hovers his hands over his chips, and "pretends" to touch them and go all in once...then twice...then he burps loudly, and does it again and laughs drukenly (note: he does NOT touch them, nor announce anything, so his actions are not binding, he merely waves at them like a drunk trying to make a weak attempt at a fake). He looks across at Ivan and Joe, and says, "Aaaaaaaa! GOTCHA! I can't play this! I fold!" Then FOLDS.

Next BIG BLIND, Seat 9, YOU.
(you have 44475 behind your post of 400 and your ante)

You see AcKs, what do you do?
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 01:02 AM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
I VOTED TO JUST CALL
MY AK OFF NEVER HITS
I WOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT JOE WHEN IVAN CALLED
DID HE LOOK HAPPY OR SAD ?


 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 01:37 AM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
I VOTED TO JUST CALL
MY AK OFF NEVER HITS
I WOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT JOE WHEN IVAN CALLED
DID HE LOOK HAPPY OR SAD ?


No comment.

You do not have enough info on Joe' expressions in the play of a hand to be sure, nor to have a real way to interpret.

BTW...

I have again voted, for ALL IN, simply so I can see the vote tallies.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 01:53 AM
(#4)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
SO WHEN YOU PLAY LIVE DO YOU LOOK AT THE RAISER IF THEY ARE CALLED ??
SOME WILL LOOK UP TO HEAVEN
SOME LOOK AT THEIR CHIPS
SOME WILL STOP PLAYING WITH THEIR CHIPS OR MOVE THEM FASTER
AND ALWAYS THE SMILE BUT SOMETIMES A SMILE OF PAIN LOL

SO WHAT DO WE DO IF MOST VOTE TO FOLD ??


 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 02:49 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Talk about why...

 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 03:05 AM
(#6)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
FOR INFO.
AND ABOUT HOW MANY HANDS HAVE BEEN PLAYED ??



Last edited by hemetdennis; Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 03:21 AM..
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 03:39 AM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Here's some useful info. We're roughly 70bb effective with Joe, and 90bb effective with Ivan. That makes this hand tricky, imo, because it's not a slam-dunk call or raise. I feel like we're turning AK into a bluff if we raise here, because Joe has a 'snug' opening range from EP, which means that if we 3bet and he 4bets, AK should be a fold (he'd need to be willing to get in several combos of AQ before we can profitably call off 70bb w/ AK, and I doubt that's happening).

Ivan seems to be somewhat dead money here if he's flatting wide to play pots in position with Joe. 3betting does have the benefit of picking up his extra money, so we should be 3bet bluffing here more often than usual, because there's more money in the pot to be won. The problem for me is, if I were to 3bet here, it would be as a straight-up bluff, and I would not be calling off my stack if I got 4bet. Therefore, if I were to 3bet/fold, it would be reducing AK to 72. This is a spot where I would be inclined to 3bet hands like A2s, 64s, etc., but since I think I could very profitably just call with AK, this cannot be a 3bet. I'm comfortable playing AK here without initiative or position. It's well-disguised, and an easy fold if we whiff. I say call.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 09:04 AM
(#8)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
well I think this is a little bit trickier spot. we know joe is gonna be quite snug here. and Ivan just flats him instead of 3 betting, which is setting of some bells for me. he almost always comes in for a 3bet, and now he flats. is he flatting to not scare off joe with a premium hand and doesn't want to let him off the hook? or does he just want to see a flop in position against joe? I would be 3 betting for sure here if it was folded to us after joe, and charge him for playing a hand against us in position, but with the flat from ivan I think I'd prefer to close the betting here and see a flop.
this is going to be a pretty tough 1 to get value from in our position.

PS thnx all for the pummeling of my turn card thought process in the last hand. Maybe if enough ppl beat me over the head with it, it will eventually sink in. (seriously) thnx

Last edited by mtnestegg; Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 09:15 AM.. Reason: PS..
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 09:16 AM
(#9)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
I think that there's almost no way to get value from AK if you 3bet preflop on deep stacks unless you're capable of pulling off incredible bluffs, or you're against a villain who plays their hand very badly, because everyone always puts everyone else on AK. I suspect that some people would be 3bet/getting it in here all day because they think the stacks are shallow enough, but I don't think that's the case.

I think that just calling actually gives us a good chance of being paid off. Because we didn't 3bet, we could get someone to flop top pair/second kicker and pay us off big because they think we never have AK here. That is a mistake unto itself, so we can't expect that to happen, but I think that we have an edge here, even playing OOP without initiative.

I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with my 'we can't 3bet AK because we turn it into 72' line of thought.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 09:19 AM..
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 09:17 AM
(#10)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
PS thnx all for the pummeling of my turn card thought process in the last hand. Maybe if enough ppl beat me over the head with it, it will eventually sink in. (seriously) thnx
Suspicious you're welcome.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 09:37 AM
(#11)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by PanickyPoker View Post

I'm curious to see if anyone disagrees with my 'we can't 3bet AK because we turn it into 72' line of thought.
I don't know that it's actually turning it into 72 because some hands that we're racing with ie. JJ, QQ or maybe even AQ (vilian dependent) might call us here to see if overs hit a flop. but again we're not getting any extra if they do.exept (maybe) AQ if an A hits.
and if we're 4 bet we can probably deduce that best case scenario is we're racing and probably crushed (being that they know we're 3betting from OOP, so we're strong and they just dont care) so overall a pretty darn squeaky range

Last edited by mtnestegg; Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 09:54 AM..
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 09:56 AM
(#12)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Yeah, one of the reasons I don't like 3betting AK in general is because when you get it in against someone's gii range, your edges are small unless you're against someone who's fine getting AQ or KJ in preflop. If your edges will never be big, then why 3bet? Think of it this way: if they'll only ever continue with pocket pairs and AK, you will never be ahead of their range, ever. So why put yourself in a situation to use the pot odds provided courtesy of your own 3bet as justification for a call? You can flat call and play a postflop game, and if you rate to win 5bb every time you do that, then you're probably doing better than if you had 3bet. That's just me, though.

Incidentally, something I just love seeing is when someone 3bets AK on 100bb effective, and the initial raiser 4bets them small enough to leave room for a 5bet jam. If you're ever in that situation with AK, fold, and fold quickly. OMG fold quickly.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 11:00 AM
(#13)
Sweetfame's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 17
If I may join the discussion.... I vote call. AK ( as dennis said) has a habit of not always working out the way you plan. Joe ( being Ivan's target) has 3 bet like he has all along but looked at him beforehand. I think he has a good starting hand and is maybe baiting Ivan ( who didn't reraise.. along for the ride??)
Would I be right in saying the pot odds are 4-1??
A reraise ( as someone said) would possibly drive Ivan out but leave us racing with Joe at smaller odds.

Tks JD for posting this scenario.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 11:14 AM
(#14)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
you guys really think that ivan is light here? flatting behind with 5 left to act behind? threeof which will have position on him post. (those three are a mainac,a giggler whose started to recently push a bit, and a drunk) remember we supposedly respect ivans game. So would you do that light in that position? seems to be begging for a 3 bet imo. signed, Suspicious...lol

Last edited by mtnestegg; Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 02:00 PM..
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 01:19 PM
(#15)
annie_22at90's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 864
I'd go for a small 3-bet, about 3000, hoping my TAG image may get both to fold or at least get heads up. 3-bet shows strength and we have a strong hand, but can easily fold if there's a shove.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 01:39 PM
(#16)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,284
I like the call as well, probably my inner nit coming out again. Given a choice between 3 betting and closing the action and seeing a flop, I'm almost always taking the flop.

ps. just played AKo, hit nothing and lost the pot, so maybe that influenced my decision.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 02:39 PM
(#17)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Nice discussion so far.

Keep it coming!
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 02:58 PM
(#18)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_22at90 View Post
I'd go for a small 3-bet, about 3000, hoping my TAG image may get both to fold or at least get heads up. 3-bet shows strength and we have a strong hand, but can easily fold if there's a shove.
I really don't think anybody is "shoving" here as deep as we are, but do we want to play this hand to either 1 of these guys 4bet OOP? flatting disguises are hand stength pretty well, and we can re evaluate post flop. as dave calls it "check re evaluate" by flatting and seeing a flop
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 03:01 PM
(#19)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
I would call here and reevaluate after the flop. We don't have any info in our reads about how these players respond to 3 bets preflop (except that Joe played a 4 bet pot with AA earlier), being out of position effectively 90 bb's deep I'm not a fan of bloating the pot without a made hand. I think we stand a better chance to win a big pot by just calling, if we hit the Ace we can get paid off by hands like AQ, AJ that would have folded to a 3 bet.
 
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Fri Aug 05, 2011, 03:23 PM
(#20)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
you guys really think that ivan is light here? flatting behind with 5 left to act behind?
By default, yes. I'm not totally clear by Ivan's description whether this call should be considered weird. I didn't when I made my first post, but I went back after I saw your first post mtn, and it sort of looks like you're right. It's just weird that someone who's targeting someone else would always 3bet them. That's crazy exploitable, and not a tactic I align with Ivan's solid image at all. Solid players who are going to be involved in extra pots because they're targeting someone else need to flat more often, otherwise they're giving money away to 4bettors. So I'm kind of confused.

Either way, we should be watching Ivan more carefully now that his range has been called into question. I still think that he could be pretty light here, since suited connectors, weak suited aces, and especially low pairs all fit the call, even if he's raise-happy. If we think that his call is suspicious, then his range is just a decent amount stronger, but certainly not 100% the nuts.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Fri Aug 05, 2011 at 03:25 PM..
 

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