Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

Duplicate Poker Hand #2: THE FLOP (pt 1)

View Poll Results: What do we do now?
CHECK 9 64.29%
Bet Small 400 to 1100, this is equal to a min bet up to a 25% pot bet. 0 0%
Bet Medium/Small 1101 to 1465, this is equal to a 25% to 33% pot bet. 0 0%
Bet Medium 1466 to 2200, this is equal to a 33% to 50% pot bet. 1 7.14%
Bet Medium/Large 2201 to 2905, this is equal to a 50% to 66% pot bet. 3 21.43%
Bet Large 2906 to 5500, this is equal to a 66% to 125% pot bet. 0 0%
OVER BET 5501 to All In, this is equal to a 125%+ pot bet. 0 0%
Abstain (a "blank" Vote for JDean to view the polling progress. Do not use this please!) 1 7.14%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

 
Old
Default
Duplicate Poker Hand #2: THE FLOP (pt 1) - Sat Aug 06, 2011, 05:16 PM
(#1)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
OK, Votes are IN!

Results:
CALL = 11
Raise small = 1
Raise medium = 1
Raise M/L = 3
Raise large = 0 (except for my fake vote to view poll)

CALL WINS!
(At the end of the hand we will review the results of the other options getting votes)

THE ACTION:

We CALL 850 more to take the flop (43625 behind)
POT = 4400

FLOP COMES:

Ad Kh 6c

Action is on us.

What do we do?

CHECK

Bet Small 400 to 1100, this is equal to a min bet up to a 25% pot bet.
Bet Medium/Small 1101 to 1465, this is equal to a 25% to 33% pot bet.
Bet Medium 1466 to 2200, this is equal to a 33% to 50% pot bet.
Bet Medium/Large 2201 to 2905, this is equal to a 50% to 66% pot bet.
Bet Large 2906 to 5500, this is equal to a 66% to 125% pot bet.
OVER BET 5501 to All In, this is equal to a 125%+ pot bet.

(Note: I do NOT give you stack sizes for the Villains, as part of LIVE PLAY is the fact you must seek that info out, either by requesting the dealer count down a Villain's chips, or by counting them across the table yourself. To represent this "effort", you must search back through the posts to find the relevant info yourself.)

Last edited by JDean; Sat Aug 06, 2011 at 05:19 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 05:22 PM
(#2)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
I VOTED MID/LARGE
I WOULD MAKE IT 3300


 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 05:23 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hemetdennis View Post
I VOTED MID/LARGE
I WOULD MAKE IT 3300


3300 would fall into the "large" category, as it would be a 75% pot bet.
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 05:29 PM
(#4)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
OK HOW DO I CHANGE MY VOTE ??



 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 05:57 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
You cannot (at least I do not think I opened it to multiple vote options).

I will consider your vote as a "large bet" vote when I count the final tally in just under 2 days, ok?
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 06:00 PM
(#6)
hemetdennis's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,019
BronzeStar
WORKS FOR ME



 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 06:04 PM
(#7)
Freckldgator's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 217
BronzeStar
I chose medium bet.
There are 2 hands that I am afraid of...AA and KK.
There are no obvious straight or flush draws. Flush would have to be backdoor, and straight means one of these guys played QJ, QT,JT or something like that. Doubtful. Only small pair that hit the set is 66.
A lot of worse hands will call me here...

I am already forming a plan for the rest of the hand.
I am betting here both for value and for info.
So lets see what I find out.
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 06:13 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freckldgator View Post
I chose medium bet.
There are 2 hands that I am afraid of...AA and KK.
There are no obvious straight or flush draws. Flush would have to be backdoor, and straight means one of these guys played QJ, QT,JT or something like that. Doubtful. Only small pair that hit the set is 66.
A lot of worse hands will call me here...

I am already forming a plan for the rest of the hand.
I am betting here both for value and for info.
So lets see what I find out.
Please try to put an exact NUMBER within the give bet ranges in your post, ok?

While all scenarioes are the SAME for any bet size made within the given ranges, the actual amount we win/lose on any hand, and how that effects our stack size, is NOT pre-determined.
Example:

Leading for 500 or leading for 1000 will lead to the same end result in the hand, but the actual stack we have AFTER the hand will possibly be effected (albeit slightly) by our exact sizing decision.

To this point, when I LACK the exact info, I have jsut picked a number inside the appropriate range, but if I see actual amounts psoted I would rather AVERAGE those amounts form the "winning" action range to arrive at our exact bet sizing.

thanks.
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 07:02 PM
(#9)
Freckldgator's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 217
BronzeStar
Sorry, I'll keep that in mind.
I would raise 1760-40% of the pot.
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 07:55 PM
(#10)
yahooza1's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 141
BronzeStar
i'm going to go for a check raise here, top 2 on a rainbow board i'm liking and we'll have position on the pre flop raiser here should he C-bet. we'll also get to see what the 3rd person in the hand will do first should the pre flop raiser C-bet
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 09:01 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freckldgator View Post
Sorry, I'll keep that in mind.
I would raise 1760-40% of the pot.
Ty.

If your option "wins", I will average your chosen amount with all other amounts in posts favoring that choice. That will be our bet size, and will determine the pot size. I have villain responses guaged as % of pot bets alrady, so those will also change in terms of size.

I much prefer to stay out of the hand decisions, since I know all the results now, and me picking the bet amount within a range doesn;t really accomplish that.

 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 09:03 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by yahooza1 View Post
i'm going to go for a check raise here, top 2 on a rainbow board i'm liking and we'll have position on the pre flop raiser here should he C-bet. we'll also get to see what the 3rd person in the hand will do first should the pre flop raiser C-bet
I'm curious...do you know about the concept of 'relative postion'?

If so, and that entered into your choice of action, could you possibly explain it for people who do not understand?

Also...

How might your choice of this action effect your future decisions in the hand against the things the villains MIGHT do behind you?
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 09:06 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freckldgator View Post
I chose medium bet.
There are 2 hands that I am afraid of...AA and KK.
There are no obvious straight or flush draws. Flush would have to be backdoor, and straight means one of these guys played QJ, QT,JT or something like that. Doubtful. Only small pair that hit the set is 66.
A lot of worse hands will call me here...

I am already forming a plan for the rest of the hand.
I am betting here both for value and for info.
So lets see what I find out.
Care to elaborate for everyone on your future plans for the hand?

A lot of the benefit of this type of exercise is in practicing those "hink ahead" skills.

If we get some discussion going on what we MIHT do on future streets, I think that can really help flesh out the thoughts of everyone so we are not just picking actions for the moment...
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 09:19 PM
(#14)
yahooza1's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 141
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I'm curious...do you know about the concept of 'relative postion'?

If so, and that entered into your choice of action, could you possibly explain it for people who do not understand?

Also...

How might your choice of this action effect your future decisions in the hand against the things the villains MIGHT do behind you?
no expert of relative position but think i have a basic knowledge about it i think.

basically 1st guy opened the pot, 2nd guy called in position then we flat called OOP but with a strong hand. on the flop we hit a damn good hand from the off so elect to check to the pre flop raiser who may C bet and in turn gives us position now on this street(am i right there) in terms of seeing then what the person with hand posiion does before coming back to us where we will have option of call/raise/folding,

in this hand i'd check to see if he C'bets, see what the other opponent was to do, should they raise the C'better i might flat call but most likely my plan here is to 2 bet the c'better and jam the turn unless a broadway card comes out
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 10:34 PM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy...tive-position/

There ya go!

I asked because you seemed to explain a play designed to leverage value out of that concept.

It is a good one to know when planning your actions!

Nice post.
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 10:49 PM
(#16)
yahooza1's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 141
BronzeStar
thanks!

probably one of my favourite plays, whether i was doing it with a nut hand or with garbage repping the nuts. it looks v strong and it picks up quite a lot of chips along with giving you info if they were to come right back over the top of you, possibly set/also AK.

good link also, great info in there
 
Old
Default
Sat Aug 06, 2011, 10:56 PM
(#17)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
I'm raising $2640, lately I've been raising std amounts, 60% of the pot. At this point, only trips are better, and I would expect either of the villians to rr with trips. This is a bet fold to me as I don't think worse can rr.
 
Old
Default
Sun Aug 07, 2011, 09:52 AM
(#18)
Freckldgator's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 217
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Care to elaborate for everyone on your future plans for the hand?

A lot of the benefit of this type of exercise is in practicing those "hink ahead" skills.

If we get some discussion going on what we MIHT do on future streets, I think that can really help flesh out the thoughts of everyone so we are not just picking actions for the moment...
Either one of these players goes all-in and I am out.
I am willing to call a raise of up to $5k-around 3x my original bet from either player. If teach calls, and Ivan raises, I'll call his raise but a re-raise from Teach and I am out.

A call worries me more here because there is a possibility of AA, KK or 66 is slowplaying.

A raise from the teacher, re-raise from Ivan..I'm out. There is a dynamic developing between these two that I don't like at all. In my (admittedly limited) experience, it is best to stay out of these little domestic disputes (depending on situation, of course), and deal with whoever is left standing.

Underlying my nitty thought process is not wanting to cripple myself at this point in the tournament with 2 pr. Not even the Cadillac of 2 pair. Wouldn't break my heart to take this down right here.
That flop is scary for anyone who has a pair under KK, unless it is 66 of course.
 
Old
Default
Sun Aug 07, 2011, 10:29 AM
(#19)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
I'm curious...do you know about the concept of 'relative postion'?
Maybe I'm wrong, but checking takes the greatest advantage of relative position because we get to see what Ivan does before we have to really decide what to do.

As a starting point, I think that there aren't a ton of ways we can get all-in against Joe here that are profitable, but there are very few ways that we can get all-in against Ivan that aren't profitable (c'mon guys, we have top two pair). Either way, we should expect Joe to c-bet an ace-high flop almost 100% of the time, but we should expect him to fold all of his unmade hands if we donk into him. I think we should check to at least get that bet out of him. If Joe bets and Ivan calls, I think we can call behind and easily reevaluate on the turn (if Joe double-barrels big, than perhaps we can find a fold, but that's a big maybe imo). If Joe bets this flop and Ivan raises, I think we can cold call and either get it in on the turn if Joe folds, or pretty easily check/fold the turn if Joe calls or just fold the flop if Joe 4bets.

Just to point out one more detail, since there are now two aces and two kings accounted for, there are exactly five remaining starting hands that have outflopped us. There are 1326 starting hands. You do the math.
 
Old
Default
Sun Aug 07, 2011, 11:21 AM
(#20)
annie_22at90's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 864
I'm checking (and really wishing i had 3-bet pre ).
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com