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playing middle pairs (8s, 9s, 10s, Js)

 
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playing middle pairs (8s, 9s, 10s, Js) - Sun Aug 07, 2011, 02:43 PM
(#1)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
hey there I have some examples of these medium pairs
I was wondering if I am making any mistakes here, thanks in front for the feedback.
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=A139958C65
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=9777336CF6
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=3DE92C56A2
http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/rep...ash=6DDED57533
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 02:43 PM
(#2)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
can someone also explain how I upload them as the videos itself?
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 02:57 PM
(#3)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
There should be a way to switch from the link to the actual code that displays the replayer. It's pretty close to the thing you copy/pasted, I think. You click the chain, then either copy/paste what you see, or switch it to the replayer code thingie. That's the best IT support I've got.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 02:59 PM
(#4)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141

i accidently found it myself, but good explaination. thanks
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 03:16 PM
(#5)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Pocket 99 hand:

I think the preflop 3bet is okay so long as the opener will flat you OOP. By 3betting, you're giving a hand that will usually flop very marginally a shot at playing in position in a heads-up pot. You're also discouraging squeezes, which is beneficial. Of course, calling is fine, especially if the table is loose and not particularly aggressive because you can play 99 for very good set value if you're going to a flop multiway.

On the flop, I actually think that you can c-bet this, because the board is so incredibly dry. C-betting 5-way is usually pretty sketchy, but you do have a made hand that's only going to go down in value unless you turn a miracle set, so you might as well take a stab now, since you're only afraid of a queen or a set.

On the turn, I think you made a bad fold, because the guy who bet had position on the flop and chose not to. That's basically a clear indicator that he does not have a queen. I would have ranged him on one pair JJ and below, and your 99 beats that range. Same goes for the guy who called. He had two opportunities to bet but took neither. He probably has a very marginal pair in that spot as well. I think that was actually a clear call.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 03:20 PM
(#6)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
88 hand:

I like your open, and I like your bet sizing on the flop. I think you projected weakness/fear on the turn with your bet sizing which isn't really a great thing to do when you actually plan to fold to a raise; I would have bet about 2/3x the pot again, but either way, the fold makes sense. Mostly well played, imo.

Last edited by PanickyPoker; Sun Aug 07, 2011 at 03:34 PM..
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 03:27 PM
(#7)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
Other 88 hand (you limped on the BU):

I think that for the same reason I said that 3betting the 99 was okay, you should have opened the 88. You're usually going to flop air and only have 88 to work with. Since you're not getting any money out of the blinds for them to see a flop, you're basically tripling your chances of being outflopped, when you could protect your equity on the flop by raising here.

I think the bet on the flop is good, I think the call on the turn is good, and I think that the bet you're facing on the river is so small that you can afford to pay it. I think it could be a weaker hand than yours. Sort of hard to tell. I wouldn't say that's a bad fold, but it is a bit on the nitty side.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 03:31 PM
(#8)
PanickyPoker's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 3,168
TT hand:

I'm not an expert on donking the flop, but I don't really like that flop bet, since you're pretty likely to only get called by better hands than yours (overpairs and sets). I think that you'd need to be against someone who turns into a complete calling station when they get donked into for that play to be much good. I guess throwing it in there to confuse people can be fine, especially if the board is wet and the villain is the suspicious type who will stick around if he puts you on a draw, but I think you're value-cutting yourself by donking here. It looks to me like you're afraid of an overcard hitting and you want the hand to end now, which is not enough reason to bet, imo.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 04:06 PM
(#9)
Sjekkkk's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 141
thanks for the feedback, really helpful
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 05:48 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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99 hand: I like the raise preflop, but, since you were the highest raiser, I think you've got to make a c-bet on the flop (if nothing else, to see where you're at in the hand). Letting that many people draw at you is taking a big chance. If you do c-bet, it'll probably have kept tonto from making the steal bet that he did.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 05:55 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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88 on the button:

I can make a reason for both limping or betting it. If you limp and get an over card to an opp that continues to bet, I'm mucking it. I'd have gotten off the hand on the turn.

If you raise preflop, that can give you more options, as you can use it to rep alot bigger hand later by raising him again on the turn... possibly getting them to fold. It also could get hands like A 10 or K 10 to drop preflop too.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 05:59 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
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10's: With 3 unders on the flop, there's a good chance you're ahead but anyone that would call a flop bet is either going to have you dominated (higher pair or set) or at worst case they will have 2 over cards. I'd have checked the flop here. I'd have also called their turn bet, but when they follow it up on the river (that puts 2 overs on the board now), then I believe you should muck because if they didn't have a queen, they probably had AK and hit the K on the river.
 
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Sun Aug 07, 2011, 10:25 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Hand #1:

Pre-Flop, nothing wrong most times with an iso raise that early with 99.
That kind of raise will let your hand play a lot better if you CAN get it H.U.

But from the RESULTS of what happened when you did 3Bet an EP min raiser (tons of callers), I'd have to really think you SHOULD have reads that this might happen.
If you do have reads in that direction (very station-y table), then I do not like your 3Bet with 99 oop much at all.

Too often what happened will happen; 1 over(at least) pops, and you are put into a tough spot vis a vis continuation.
Versus a ton of calling stations, a lead bet into 1 over is not really a good value spot, and with that many CS behind you aren't really picking the pot up a whole of of times on "just" a C-Bet rep'ping a top pair+ hand either. But...

If you FLAT in and bink your set, those stations turn into GOLD MINES for you!

So with reads saying the results here have a good chance of happening, I think I'd flat along and play "no set no bet", but if you lack them, there is nothing wrong with raising...as long as you intend to C-Bet on most flops, including 1 over flops like this one.

After the pre-flop decision, the sheer BULK of callers of a raise AND a 3Bet from EP makes it really hard for you to C-Bet, even delayed C-Bet, on the single over. So I do not think you played poorly at all. PERHAPS a turn shot on a delayed C-bet is reasonable to try (if it becomes an "orphaned pot" and you still see only 1 over why not, right?), but is certainly NOT obligatory with a very marginal 3rd straight card coming, and that many people to push the bet through; betting that turn could have jsut as easily triggered any traps waiting for you.

So check/folding there is probably pretty safe, and delaying the C-Bet is a somewhat high risk/low reward type play.
I think you lost about as little as you could here, and stay within the bounds of "solid grinder" poker.

Grinder poker may not be sexy, but it is certainly still a perfectly valid way of playing to manage variance.



Hand #2:

3bet Pre, I HATE passive blind "defenses".

Even if the table is still station-y, in the BB you have a situation where you are facing 2 villains AT MAX post flop.

Both entries were LP (Hi jack and C.O.), so their raise range should at least be a little wider.

The C.O. could easily have been targetting the HJ limp with his raise, so you really benefit by finding out immediately how well your TT is likely to play.

Plus, on this depth of money, a 3Bet in the $3.50 to $4.00 (to go) range is not something you CAN'T fold off.

Whether the villain was floating, out flopped you, or was better all along are all possibilities. All we do know is your pre-flop actions did not put you into a postion have a good feel for which it might be. So I think you either 3bet pre, or check that minor over pair and see what happens behind as a BETTER way of playing it in terms of losing less.

Hand #3:

Pre-flop and flop, pretty standard really.

Turn, when the 3rd club hits, and it is a minor over card...meh.
I can see reasons for going either with a check or the bet.

Check is good because if the guy behind will flat you, that rep's a scare card for you, and you are folding to any raise really.
Bet is good because you do not open the thought of a scare card bet to someone who might not see it EXCEPT when you check.

When Villain does come over you big on the turn though, that is a standard fold.

Hand #4:

Standard, all the way thru the turn really.

On the turn, you pick up some re-draw outs to the gut shot, so I do not see anything massively wrong with your call of his 120 donk lead into the 260 pot.
If you are doing that, then why are you folding to the 200 river bet?

You are gettng a touch over 4 to 1 to call that, so you only need to snap him off about 20% of the time to be "right".

Fact is, that sniffs of some sort of blocker bet. He either binked a heart draw to go with over cards, and now is blocking, or he might have something like 55, or 5hXh.
Since you hold 2 "blockers" to the T hi stright in your 88, I doubt seriously he made a straight unless he had 53s EXACTLY.

Sure, a kicker hit on the 6 is marginally possible too, but if he boated the river with you BOTH calling AND the most likely flush draw coming in, wouldn't he have bet MORE on the river? This just feels to me like a re-draw pick up blocker type bet...

That means why not raise instead of calling and finding out?

OVERALL:

I do think there is a theme here in your play of these hands:

Mis-timed aggression.

It looks to me like the first 3 hands are all fine, but you MAY be throwing off a pattern with your betting on the turns that indicate you are willing to fold. This might be opening the door to more float plays against you. Go review your own hands (the first 3) and see if you spot what I'm talking about.
(If you cannot see it, then put up in here after trying, and I'll tell ya, ok? I MIGHT be off base, but at least we can talk it through...)

In the last hand, you seemed to be willing to call, but not put the villain to a test. That is kind of the "pattern" I think I spotted in your play of the first 3 hands, but a slightly different form of it because you are in position on hand 4...

In Dolye Brunson's Book, "Poker Wisdom of a Champion", he tells a story aobut teaching someone to drive in an old 3 speed manual car that lacked 2nd gear. doyle told the person, "don;t worry aobut it, all you need is 1st and 3rd!", and likened that to poker aggression. It feels to me that you are trying to use "2nd gear" on a lot of your turn decisions with mid pp, when you probably should be either WAY slowing down (going into 1st) if you are worried, or slamming it into 3rd and Revv'ing the engine (if you think they may be trying to take you off).

See if you can find the bet pattern in your oop play of the first 3 hands, and we can talk, ok?
 

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