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KK fold pf

 
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KK fold pf - Thu Aug 11, 2011, 06:06 AM
(#1)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
This is for the guys here who also play the UKIPT Division 1 and were 100% sure I was talking shit. Just remembered I still had to upload this lol. This is why you NEVER should fold KK pf tho ;p I think it should be posted here since everyone can have an opinion on whether it is a 'correct' fold overall: Will this fold be +EV in the long run even though you have a solid read that this shove can only be AA on the bubble near the end of the month where points are super important?

 
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Thu Aug 11, 2011, 10:45 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,831
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folding it 3 handed, especially if you put one opp on AA is the absolute correct play. You're getting 2-1 on your $$ in the pot, BUT.... only have 17% hand equity (acutally, with the suits involved, you have the lowest hand equity of all 3 players). With the 17%, it's -EV to play the hand and is a fold every time.

If you put the 3rd player on any pair or any suited broadway, then your equity drops even further (16%).

Bottom line, folding your KK in a 3-way pot, especially if you put someone on AA, is the absoltue correct play.... ESPECIALLY if you're on the bubble.
 
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Thu Aug 11, 2011, 11:55 AM
(#3)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Thank you JWK :p The main point of this post was a thinly veiled brag though! Shame about the flop.. hehe
 
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Thu Aug 11, 2011, 12:08 PM
(#4)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
If it's a big bubble I could (probably) find the fold button, but if i'm playin it, its def a reshove
 
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Thu Aug 11, 2011, 04:13 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Not sure I like your decision here to be honest...

SB has 7k behind, when he flat calls.

If he is stacking off that much with 77, mightn't he be convinced to stack off MORE?

If the answer to that is "no, my read is he will call to sheriff, but will not put his entire stack at risk with that hand", then fine...

BUT...

You would have had to read BOTH of 'em for AA to maybe not even TRY getting a side pot.

So in the first place, I suspect incredibly narrow reads like this, since when they do show up as what we "feared" was there we fall prey to feel good results oriented thinking. In the 2nd place, I find it hard to NOT suspect the call committed the SB to AT LEAST seeing the flop...and if he saw the flop you can get his stack in. If you do that, you "lose" a pot of about 11k to the all in, but you WIN a side pot in excess of 14k vs SB...

It is way more than break even for you.
 
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Fri Aug 12, 2011, 02:23 AM
(#6)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Not sure I like your decision here to be honest...

SB has 7k behind, when he flat calls.

If he is stacking off that much with 77, mightn't he be convinced to stack off MORE?

If the answer to that is "no, my read is he will call to sheriff, but will not put his entire stack at risk with that hand", then fine...

BUT...

You would have had to read BOTH of 'em for AA to maybe not even TRY getting a side pot.

So in the first place, I suspect incredibly narrow reads like this, since when they do show up as what we "feared" was there we fall prey to feel good results oriented thinking. In the 2nd place, I find it hard to NOT suspect the call committed the SB to AT LEAST seeing the flop...and if he saw the flop you can get his stack in. If you do that, you "lose" a pot of about 11k to the all in, but you WIN a side pot in excess of 14k vs SB...

It is way more than break even for you.
This thought process is fine if you believe that the SB is always calling my reshove, although I (correctly) thought that he would fold to a reshove because he is assuming that button is shoving for blinds with a decent hand which 77 has good equity against with the blinds at this level and he isn't risking his stack based on the odds of me having a hand to reshove, however if reshoved on the obvious choice would be fold to not bubble vs a hand that is clearly either flipping with you or has you crushed (overpair). I assumed that if I reshoved SB would almost definately fold as he had been very active at the table but is careful to not throw away chips or risk his stack. This means that button is getting a triple up almost always and even though I am getting alot of dead money in heads up I do not want to go up against something I am 90% sure is AA.
 
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Fri Aug 12, 2011, 03:24 AM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
This thought process is fine if you believe that the SB is always calling my reshove, although I (correctly) thought that he would fold to a reshove because he is assuming that button is shoving for blinds with a decent hand which 77 has good equity against with the blinds at this level and he isn't risking his stack based on the odds of me having a hand to reshove, however if reshoved on the obvious choice would be fold to not bubble vs a hand that is clearly either flipping with you or has you crushed (overpair). I assumed that if I reshoved SB would almost definately fold as he had been very active at the table but is careful to not throw away chips or risk his stack. This means that button is getting a triple up almost always and even though I am getting alot of dead money in heads up I do not want to go up against something I am 90% sure is AA.
No need to re-shove necessarily though...

SB FLATTED you. If you raise him small, he is sticking himself pretty hard to the flop as he already has a good chunk of his stack in pre-flop just by calling the initial shove.

If you are SURE he'd fold to ANY raise by you, then ok...I can see it- barely.

Putting the initial all-in on a single hand "range" though is pretty darn CLOSE, and may not be optimal to be honest. Just because it was "right" based on the results, does not mean it is right absent the result though.

What I am pretty sure I would have done is raise a small amount over the all-in, maybe even a min raise. That would firmly "stick" the SB to the pot if he calls. I find it hard to think that anyone who would sheriff that all in on 77 (especially vs a range that YOU read as AA only!) would not then put you on a squeeze if you raise him small...

But all that is highly read dependant, and since I wasn;t there, I just have to go with what you say...

Fact is though, I still find it hard to credit your ranging of the intiail all in on JUST AA (the only hand you are behind) as being truly effective. But if you say so...
 
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Fri Aug 12, 2011, 01:09 PM
(#8)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
No need to re-shove necessarily though...

SB FLATTED you. If you raise him small, he is sticking himself pretty hard to the flop as he already has a good chunk of his stack in pre-flop just by calling the initial shove.

If you are SURE he'd fold to ANY raise by you, then ok...I can see it- barely.

Putting the initial all-in on a single hand "range" though is pretty darn CLOSE, and may not be optimal to be honest. Just because it was "right" based on the results, does not mean it is right absent the result though.

What I am pretty sure I would have done is raise a small amount over the all-in, maybe even a min raise. That would firmly "stick" the SB to the pot if he calls. I find it hard to think that anyone who would sheriff that all in on 77 (especially vs a range that YOU read as AA only!) would not then put you on a squeeze if you raise him small...

But all that is highly read dependant, and since I wasn;t there, I just have to go with what you say...

Fact is though, I still find it hard to credit your ranging of the intiail all in on JUST AA (the only hand you are behind) as being truly effective. But if you say so...
He is putting me on a squeeze 0% of the time with that play on the bubble with the stacks the way they are and the betting infront of me if he has any clue at all.

I used to criticize players who ever fold KK in spots like this saying that it is just too crazy to assume AA when you have KK but one of the main strengths you can have in poker over years of experience is making a huge fold if you feel that it is right in that spot. 95% of the time I reshove here, trust me. At the end of the day you can't really criticize a play which was correct as shown :p
 

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