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2nd nuts monotone action

 
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2nd nuts monotone action - Wed Aug 17, 2011, 05:53 PM
(#1)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
PokerStars Game #66159915339: Tournament #434010733, $15.00+$1.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (25/50) - 2011/08/17 22:45:08 WET [2011/08/17 17:45:08 ET]
Table '434010733 99' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Widzywidzy^^ (2082 in chips)
Seat 2: Oktay+Ece (1700 in chips)
Seat 3: Melkor69 (1895 in chips)
Seat 4: donkmundur1 (4535 in chips)
Seat 5: drlittlemike (1955 in chips)
Seat 6: LaliTournier (2105 in chips)
Seat 7: TheGrinders7 (1940 in chips)
Seat 8: ssuussii (2570 in chips)
Seat 9: serjjj2011 (1448 in chips)
donkmundur1: posts small blind 25
drlittlemike: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Widzywidzy^^ [Qh Th]
LaliTournier: folds
TheGrinders7: folds
ssuussii: calls 50
serjjj2011: calls 50
Widzywidzy^^: calls 50
Oktay+Ece: calls 50
Melkor69: calls 50
donkmundur1: calls 25
drlittlemike: checks
*** FLOP *** [4h 6h Kh]
donkmundur1: checks
drlittlemike: checks
ssuussii: bets 250
serjjj2011: folds
Widzywidzy^^: calls 250
Oktay+Ece: calls 250
Melkor69: calls 250
donkmundur1: raises 4235 to 4485 and is all-in
drlittlemike: folds
ssuussii: calls 2270 and is all-in
Widzywidzy^^: calls 1782 and is all-in
Oktay+Ece: calls 1400 and is all-in
Melkor69: calls 1595 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1965) returned to donkmundur1
*** TURN *** [4h 6h Kh] [8c]
*** RIVER *** [4h 6h Kh 8c] [6c]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will post the results later. Does anyone mind this call?

I was super suprised by the two calls behind me btw.

Dont want to add my thought process until i've seen a few replies :p

Oh and just out of curiousity, which player are you worried about more? The shove, the call, the players behind?

Last edited by Widzywidzy^^; Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 06:01 PM..
 
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Wed Aug 17, 2011, 06:33 PM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
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That's real early in a tourney to be all-in without the absolute nuts. Yes, you flop a flush, but there are alot of things out there that can beat you.
With that many limping, one most likely has the A of hearts.... if not a higher flush already. Someone else could easily have a set, that turns into a full house or quads on the river.

Honestly, that hand is a muck that early preflop.

I'd be least worried about the ones after... they're priced in with way, way too many draws. Either the original shover, or first caller, are who I'd be worried about the most.
 
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Wed Aug 17, 2011, 08:16 PM
(#3)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
That's real early in a tourney to be all-in without the absolute nuts. Yes, you flop a flush, but there are alot of things out there that can beat you.
With that many limping, one most likely has the A of hearts.... if not a higher flush already. Someone else could easily have a set, that turns into a full house or quads on the river.

Honestly, that hand is a muck that early preflop.

I'd be least worried about the ones after... they're priced in with way, way too many draws. Either the original shover, or first caller, are who I'd be worried about the most.
Limp pf is fine to get in cheap early with a hand with potential to see a flop, pretty much everyone will agree. Accumulating a stack early is crucial in these tournaments imo.

I assumed the shove was kinda donkish protection from draws with minimum TP and the call was at a minimum AhKx, a set, but probably a small flush happy to get it in obv. The calls behind looked like one almost definately had Ah but why would I ever fold here. The odds of the player with Ah having another heart after the call to the shove was probably hearts, and including mine and the board, that only gives a player with Ah in their hand another 5, not including chances of the shove having a hand like K9 with 9 of hearts, meaning 4. To fold with the odds compared with chances hand is good in this hand would be sheer paranoia and nothing else imo. You could argue that it is a crying call of sorts but I am happy to get it in here, we always have the possible J9 straight flush draw

Last edited by Widzywidzy^^; Wed Aug 17, 2011 at 08:28 PM..
 
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Wed Aug 17, 2011, 08:33 PM
(#4)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Board: Kh 4h 2h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.012% 51.01% 00.00% 378 0.00 { QhTh }
Hand 1: 00.000% 00.00% 00.00% 0 0.00 { Jh7h }
Hand 2: 02.159% 02.16% 00.00% 16 0.00 { Kd9h }
Hand 3: 14.980% 14.98% 00.00% 111 0.00 { Ah3d }
Hand 4: 31.849% 31.85% 00.00% 236 0.00 { 4c4s }

This is probably a good example of what I could be up against. Do you think it is right to fold 51% equity for these odds?
 
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Wed Aug 17, 2011, 08:59 PM
(#5)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
You could also be up against something like this:

Board: Kh 6h 4h
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 73.954% 73.95% 00.00% 548 0.00 { QhTh }
Hand 1: 00.540% 00.40% 00.13% 3 1.00 { KcQd }
Hand 2: 14.170% 14.04% 00.13% 104 1.00 { Kd6s }
Hand 3: 00.135% 00.13% 00.00% 1 0.00 { Jh8h }
Hand 4: 11.201% 11.20% 00.00% 83 0.00 { 4c4s }

You wouldn't want to fold in this case would you?

Only 7 hands beat you (AhJh, Ah9h, Ah8h, Ah7h, Ah5h, Ah3h, Ah2h) there are so many ways to make a worse hand on this board you have to play here.
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 07:35 AM
(#6)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I think with all this action going on, your looking at at least one set, and probably the nut draw. If not the nuts, you are probably ahead here, but lots of cards can roll with 2 to come, and when that board paired, I would have just let out a big sigh, and expected the chips to be moving in another direction. I also would put the villains on a range, and not specific hands. Jmo for what its worth.

Last edited by mtnestegg; Thu Aug 18, 2011 at 08:22 AM..
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 09:04 AM
(#7)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
If not the nuts, you are probably ahead here
I lol'd at this.

Each villain has a specific range :p Generally it is tighter in the middle of these spots than the beginning or end though.
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 09:58 AM
(#8)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Lol away... I only put tha because there ARE hands that your behind here. Odds are slim but not nonexistent.
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 10:36 AM
(#9)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
I lol'd at this.

Each villain has a specific range :p.
Oh and thanks I loled too.. Never heard 1 hand bein called a specific "range" i'll have to try that in the future.
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 11:38 AM
(#10)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtnestegg View Post
Oh and thanks I loled too.. Never heard 1 hand bein called a specific "range" i'll have to try that in the future.
Saying Ah/x is a range, saying set/TPAh/2p/small flush is a range, idk where you're getting this from?

I lol'd at your statement because you said if the guy doesn't have the nuts, im PROBABLY ahead. If he doesn't have the nuts, I am obviously ahead as I have the 2nd nuts lol? Thats what I found funny :p
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 11:59 AM
(#11)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
lol my mistake. my punctuations were backwards. What I meant was you were looking at the nut draw (comma) if not the nuts (period) you're probably ahead here....... as written you're right definetely worth an lol I just meant w/ 4 villains willing to go to the wall on the flop, the nuts are definetely not out of the relm of possibility.
And i'm 100% you were ahead because the hand wouldn't have been posted otherwise
Btw I think u got ur chips in good.long run hugely profitable, what more could u ask

Last edited by mtnestegg; Thu Aug 18, 2011 at 12:05 PM..
 
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Thu Aug 18, 2011, 12:33 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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I hope you won the hand... but here's an appropriate quote (from TJ Cloutier by way of JDean) "Don't go broke on a hand that you won't raise with preflop".
 
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Fri Aug 19, 2011, 07:33 AM
(#13)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I hope you won the hand... but here's an appropriate quote (from TJ Cloutier by way of JDean) "Don't go broke on a hand that you won't raise with preflop".
So if I limp in with 22 I shouldn't go broke on a A2255 board? :p Worst quote ever lol.

Anyway heres the hand.



You could say I technically made the right reads and got it in good when the action was on me, kinda forced to. Was suprised to see that no-one had sets but I was worried about the all-in calls behind me as they were either crazy draws with odds (set drawing to FH knowing its beat) or nuts.
 
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Fri Aug 19, 2011, 07:41 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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If you have 22 and limped in, and saw an A22 flop...

And you kept the pot SMALL, until the last 5 fell...

Yup...you'd be a moron to go broke in a deep money situation.

...and I'd kinda think that a BETTER candidate for "worst quote ever" would probably be one made by someone who puts out a REQUEST for a hand analysis, when OBVIOUSLY, he knows it all already...

I'm just sayin'...



In this spot, a QTs limp pre is kinda spew-y TBH...

I am basing that on the assumption that this many people willing to put their tourney life at risk means that not EVERYONE has an A hi flush (nor even an A hi flush draw), or a set.

Since there are essentially 5 all ins in this hand, I'm guessing that the players here have shown some kind of willingness to throw chips around pretty strongly. This means you can expect the flop to bring some pretty heavy chip moves just about every time.

If that is the case, how often are you likely getting the ability to play QTh for its DRAW VALUE?

How often are you going to be confident playing a "big pot" with any single pair hand made with a QT (the "most likely" flop hit)?

Speculative hands, those with a LOT of their equity tied to flopping DRAWS, benefit from playing SMALL POTS until they've hit. Because QT is going to have kicker issues with any pair it flops, You'd also have a pretty tricky decision set in a likely large pot.

That leaves you feeling confident to play a hand such as this, out of position in a likely "big pot", only when you hit for 2 pair or better. Those hands will happen only about 5% of the time FOR ALL COMBINATIONS of hands that MIGHT be playable in a big pot situation...

So if you are using the fact you flopped a flush as justification for playing QTs UTG +2, that really is just luck. You'd be far better served in MTT poker dumping hands like that oop on the sort of dynamic probably at work here.

When you DO enter, and you DO flop the 2nd nut flush, you are still looking at 1 hand which might be ahead of you; for every person willing to jam all their chips in, the chance you ARE facing that 1 hand goes way way up.

At best though, you are fading DRAWS to run you down.

Ah has about a 35% shot at you since he will see the turn and the river.
Any set has about 37% chance to run you down, because he too will see both cards.

ONLY because you are getting at least a triple up is it even WORTH thinking about fading all those outs, as well as the chance someone already has you beat (and drawing essentially dead).

So I'm not saying this is "wrong" to do, but it really is not a situation you need to be courting a whole lot of the time...

Next time, if the villains are this wild, save yer 50 chips and stay out of pots oop with cheese hands liek QTs.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Aug 19, 2011 at 08:15 AM..
 
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Fri Aug 19, 2011, 10:04 AM
(#15)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
If you have 22 and limped in, and saw an A22 flop...

And you kept the pot SMALL, until the last 5 fell...

Yup...you'd be a moron to go broke in a deep money situation.

...and I'd kinda think that a BETTER candidate for "worst quote ever" would probably be one made by someone who puts out a REQUEST for a hand analysis, when OBVIOUSLY, he knows it all already...

Lol yes because if a guy shoved for 2k chips into a 500 pot on A2255 and you had quads, you would obv fold cause he MUST have 55 right? Don't talk shit. IDK whats worse, claiming this, or suggesting to keep the pot small and not go broke with quads.

I posted this hand mainly because I wanted to hear peoples thoughts and opinions on what villain looked most threatening as it was the unlikely candidate who had me beat, and to see if anyone could get it right, as to see if in my own mind, I made the right decision. You and everyone else said shove and call were the most threatening, so that part of your read was obviously bad and I don't think you fully thought the hand through. You are just speculating that because the board is x then the situation is y when you should be considering other elements. Obviously as you didn't have history with these players (I can't honestly remember too much about it but in the frame of mind I was in at that table it was much easier than it looked to snapcall, I guess they were donkeys) then you can't be criticized too much for that though.

I am not in this forum because i'm a bad player and want super amazing advice from people who think their good, or possibly are good, i'm not posting this hand cause I need the forum mod pros to help me improve as a player, I treat this section of the forum as a DISCUSSION based hand analysis, such as the one they have on twoplustwo etc, but I do enjoy taking advice and hearing opinions from players with different mindsets in hands provided that they have some sense of logic to them.
 
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Fri Aug 19, 2011, 02:02 PM
(#16)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
I am not in this forum because i'm a bad player and want super amazing advice from people who think their good, or possibly are good, i'm not posting this hand cause I need the forum mod pros to help me improve as a player, I treat this section of the forum as a DISCUSSION based hand analysis, such as the one they have on twoplustwo etc, but I do enjoy taking advice and hearing opinions from players with different mindsets in hands provided that they have some sense of logic to them.
well thats about an arrogant response as you can give
 
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Fri Aug 19, 2011, 03:35 PM
(#17)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
Lol yes because if a guy shoved for 2k chips into a 500 pot on A2255 and you had quads, you would obv fold cause he MUST have 55 right? Don't talk shit. IDK whats worse, claiming this, or suggesting to keep the pot small and not go broke with quads.
1) The advice you so flippantly dismiss as "worst ever" comes form a man who has a-massed a career in poker one can only dream of.

The fact you use an EXTREME EXAMPLE to attempt to prove a general "rule" is pretty stupid actually. Your A2255 hand is damn EXTREME...

Since you then move back into a realm of "reality" by saying you'd stack off 2k in a 500 chip pot all day in that spot, you;ve just crossed things up...

OBVIOUSLY in a 20% chip up spot I'm not thinking TJ CLOUTIER is advocating folding with 2nd nut hand quads very often. So quite frankly, you are using an "extreme" hand situation without employing a similarly extreme betting situation!

If you want to compare apples to apples, try considering your stack size as 1,000,000 and that you've allowed the pot to stay 500 chips all the way thru the river when you see that 2nd 5.

The "truth" behind the statement made by TJ Cloutier, "Never go broke in a limped pot!" lies in recognizing what that MEANS. And what it MEANS is...

"The smaller the pot is in an MTT, and the larger your stack is in an MTT in comparison to that small pot, the less willing you should be to put yourself into a situation where you must make a call for a LARGE PORTION of your stack without the absolute nut hand.

Either you should act in such a manner that it is YOU who is putting your OPPONENTS to a "test" (via bets and raises), or you should more often consider the less "painful" option to be FOLDING a good hand which MIGHT be 2nd best simply because you are not YET heavily invested in that very small pot."

TJ's way of stating it is a whole lot smoooooother though, but then what does he know, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
I posted this hand mainly because I wanted to hear peoples thoughts and opinions on what villain looked most threatening as it was the unlikely candidate who had me beat, and to see if anyone could get it right, as to see if in my own mind, I made the right decision. You and everyone else said shove and call were the most threatening, so that part of your read was obviously bad and I don't think you fully thought the hand through. You are just speculating that because the board is x then the situation is y when you should be considering other elements. Obviously as you didn't have history with these players (I can't honestly remember too much about it but in the frame of mind I was in at that table it was much easier than it looked to snapcall, I guess they were donkeys) then you can't be criticized too much for that though.
EXACTLY pumpkin...

You ask the folks in this forum to identify your biggest "threat" in the hand, yet you give us ZERO INFO upon which to assess ANY of the threats here. When you then hear some things you may not WANT to hear (like QTs oop on a table full of people willing to stack off is NOT a very good hand to play), you then dismiss those thoughts as "the worst advice ever"...pffffft!

Seriously, it is YOU who might want to come off your high horse here a bit, and consider that your REAL goal in posting this was to trumpet your own good fortune, NOT solicit any thoughts form anyone else.

JWK's statements merely were giving you a RANGE of things to think about...and amongst that range of possibilities is the simple fact that if more than 1 person IS willing to launch their entire stack into this pot, the chance 2nd nuts is NO GOOD goes way up.

I followed that up with agreement with JWK's assessment that situations like this are VERY BAD for a hand like 2nd nut, simply because it does mean your tourney life if you are wrong in calling. I also expanded by saying that BASED ON RESULTS (what happened in the hand), there is probably a way you might have KNOWN this sort of "rush to stack off" by multiple players at your table is a definate possibility. IF YOU DID HAVE INFO in that direction (note...IF, IF, IF!!!!) then you "failed" to recognize the ulnerability of QTs on all but about 5% of possible flops. DESPITE the potential "danger" of palying as you did here, both JWK and I agreed with your assessment that given all the "un-spoken" info, you probably had TOO STRONG a hand to fold...

How are either of those thoughts "bad advice"...except for the fact they do NOT fit in easily with a "yay me, I'm gunna pat myself on the back" attitude?

Just because you GOT the 2nd nut, and got a situation where you COULD make a case for stacking off here (if someone has better, or if they spike), does NOT mean you used really good reasoning to GET that spot! That's all we are saying spunky...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
I am not in this forum because i'm a bad player and want super amazing advice from people who think their good, or possibly are good, i'm not posting this hand cause I need the forum mod pros to help me improve as a player, I treat this section of the forum as a DISCUSSION based hand analysis, such as the one they have on twoplustwo etc, but I do enjoy taking advice and hearing opinions from players with different mindsets in hands provided that they have some sense of logic to them.
No one said you are a BAD PLAYER...

I did say you picked a pretty spew-y hand to enter for a limp in an "I do not care if I stack off" table dynamic.

As for you not wanting "super amazing advice from people who think they are good", or not posting because "you want mod pros to help you IMPROVE as a player"...why ARE you posting then?

You SAY it is because "you do enjoy discussion a la 2 + 2, and taking advice with LOGIC behind it"...

Uh UH...

I used logic to tell you why I thought you:

A) Got youself into a BAD SPOT by playing a BAD HAND in a BAD TABLE DYNAMIC for that hand.
I suggested you think about avoiding those things in the future.

B) Explained WHY you could "expect" the table dynamic to be bad for your hand, and how you could expect to recognize that poor dynamic on minimal info.

so in essence, at least I THOUGHT I was "discussing" your paly of the hand with you...

I thought your decision to enter, so long as you'd seen stuff to say a "big pot" was likely to be seen on the flop (especially via big chip moves from maniacs), was quite poor. QTs simply is not the type of hand you WANT to be playing oop in that sort of dynamic.

If you were in LP, when you stood a greater chance of being able to CLOSE THE BETTING, or at least have the chance to SEE significant action in front of you before you must commit chips beyond your intial 50 chip limp, then QTs becomes a lot more "playable".

In THIS (likely) table dynamic though, since you stand only about a 5% total chance to flop 2 pairs or better, you run a SEVERE RISK:

It starts with a 50 chip limp oop.
Then instead of 2nd nut flush, you flop top pair/T kicker.
It checks to you, so you fire in half pot 125.
After that, donkey moron 1 jams all in.
Donkey moron 2 then calls.
Donkey moron 3 calls.

What do you do NOW skippy?

POOF! where is 10% of your stack about to go?

Since that is MUCH MORE LIKELY to happen than the 1% chance (ok, 0.8% chance) you have of flopping the flush, how many times can you AFFORD that play before you are in shove or fold mode?

....

THAT is "discussion", including "advice" on why something that just happened to "work" THIS TIME may not be the best thing to do very often at all...

When you respond to posts as you have above, it definately comes off as you simply re-acting in a knee jerk fashion to DEFEND your decisions. How about you type in WHY you think my "logic" is flawed, therefore my "advice" is "un-sound". THAT would be "discussion"...

Instead you come off as an ego driven player who happened to luck into a quite good flop against a bunch of idiots who are willing to stack themselves off lightly. I say ego driven because as soon as someone might have the termerity to mention that you may NOT have been "responsible" for your good fortune in this hand, it seems you get your hackles up.

Of course, you COULD counter by saying that I seem to have gotten my hackles up over your "slap" at JWK's use of a quote I "borrow" from TJ Cloutier quite often. I do not DISAGREE with you that JWK's use of that quote for this spot may not be the "best use" IF HE SAID BECAUSE OF THAT YOU SHOULD FOLD; JWK did not say that...

He merely tossed out that quote as a "truth" that means you really SHOULD be considering the chance you are beat NOW, thus drawing dead, and whether or not winning THIS POT is worth the risk of maybe losing your entire tourney "life".

Simply BECAUSE the TEV of a triple up (what you were looking at when your decision had to be made) is great enough, and your hand as 2nd nut is behind so little, in this spot a limp/stack off is probably appropriate.

I'd ask you THIS though:

Do you feel as confident that the A hi flush is NOT there if those 2 check/jammers behind you had re-shoved BEFORE you had to decide whether to keep going on 2nd nut?

Do you see any material difference in the risk level to your 2nd nut hand when faced with 4 people who feel their hand is good enough to stack off on, rather than 2?

Can you also see that playing QTs oop in a table dynamic which MAY present you with these big stack decisions is NOT a good idea, since you will flop a really STRONG HAND so infrequently?

Since you were looking for "discussion"...how aobut answering those questions please...
 
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Sat Aug 20, 2011, 02:25 PM
(#18)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
1) The advice you so flippantly dismiss as "worst ever" comes form a man who has a-massed a career in poker one can only dream of.

The fact you use an EXTREME EXAMPLE to attempt to prove a general "rule" is pretty stupid actually. Your A2255 hand is damn EXTREME...

Since you then move back into a realm of "reality" by saying you'd stack off 2k in a 500 chip pot all day in that spot, you;ve just crossed things up...

OBVIOUSLY in a 20% chip up spot I'm not thinking TJ CLOUTIER is advocating folding with 2nd nut hand quads very often. So quite frankly, you are using an "extreme" hand situation without employing a similarly extreme betting situation!

If you want to compare apples to apples, try considering your stack size as 1,000,000 and that you've allowed the pot to stay 500 chips all the way thru the river when you see that 2nd 5.

The "truth" behind the statement made by TJ Cloutier, "Never go broke in a limped pot!" lies in recognizing what that MEANS. And what it MEANS is...

"The smaller the pot is in an MTT, and the larger your stack is in an MTT in comparison to that small pot, the less willing you should be to put yourself into a situation where you must make a call for a LARGE PORTION of your stack without the absolute nut hand.

Either you should act in such a manner that it is YOU who is putting your OPPONENTS to a "test" (via bets and raises), or you should more often consider the less "painful" option to be FOLDING a good hand which MIGHT be 2nd best simply because you are not YET heavily invested in that very small pot."

TJ's way of stating it is a whole lot smoooooother though, but then what does he know, right?



EXACTLY pumpkin...

You ask the folks in this forum to identify your biggest "threat" in the hand, yet you give us ZERO INFO upon which to assess ANY of the threats here. When you then hear some things you may not WANT to hear (like QTs oop on a table full of people willing to stack off is NOT a very good hand to play), you then dismiss those thoughts as "the worst advice ever"...pffffft!

Seriously, it is YOU who might want to come off your high horse here a bit, and consider that your REAL goal in posting this was to trumpet your own good fortune, NOT solicit any thoughts form anyone else.

JWK's statements merely were giving you a RANGE of things to think about...and amongst that range of possibilities is the simple fact that if more than 1 person IS willing to launch their entire stack into this pot, the chance 2nd nuts is NO GOOD goes way up.

I followed that up with agreement with JWK's assessment that situations like this are VERY BAD for a hand like 2nd nut, simply because it does mean your tourney life if you are wrong in calling. I also expanded by saying that BASED ON RESULTS (what happened in the hand), there is probably a way you might have KNOWN this sort of "rush to stack off" by multiple players at your table is a definate possibility. IF YOU DID HAVE INFO in that direction (note...IF, IF, IF!!!!) then you "failed" to recognize the ulnerability of QTs on all but about 5% of possible flops. DESPITE the potential "danger" of palying as you did here, both JWK and I agreed with your assessment that given all the "un-spoken" info, you probably had TOO STRONG a hand to fold...

How are either of those thoughts "bad advice"...except for the fact they do NOT fit in easily with a "yay me, I'm gunna pat myself on the back" attitude?

Just because you GOT the 2nd nut, and got a situation where you COULD make a case for stacking off here (if someone has better, or if they spike), does NOT mean you used really good reasoning to GET that spot! That's all we are saying spunky...



No one said you are a BAD PLAYER...

I did say you picked a pretty spew-y hand to enter for a limp in an "I do not care if I stack off" table dynamic.

As for you not wanting "super amazing advice from people who think they are good", or not posting because "you want mod pros to help you IMPROVE as a player"...why ARE you posting then?

You SAY it is because "you do enjoy discussion a la 2 + 2, and taking advice with LOGIC behind it"...

Uh UH...

I used logic to tell you why I thought you:

A) Got youself into a BAD SPOT by playing a BAD HAND in a BAD TABLE DYNAMIC for that hand.
I suggested you think about avoiding those things in the future.

B) Explained WHY you could "expect" the table dynamic to be bad for your hand, and how you could expect to recognize that poor dynamic on minimal info.

so in essence, at least I THOUGHT I was "discussing" your paly of the hand with you...

I thought your decision to enter, so long as you'd seen stuff to say a "big pot" was likely to be seen on the flop (especially via big chip moves from maniacs), was quite poor. QTs simply is not the type of hand you WANT to be playing oop in that sort of dynamic.

If you were in LP, when you stood a greater chance of being able to CLOSE THE BETTING, or at least have the chance to SEE significant action in front of you before you must commit chips beyond your intial 50 chip limp, then QTs becomes a lot more "playable".

In THIS (likely) table dynamic though, since you stand only about a 5% total chance to flop 2 pairs or better, you run a SEVERE RISK:

It starts with a 50 chip limp oop.
Then instead of 2nd nut flush, you flop top pair/T kicker.
It checks to you, so you fire in half pot 125.
After that, donkey moron 1 jams all in.
Donkey moron 2 then calls.
Donkey moron 3 calls.

What do you do NOW skippy?

POOF! where is 10% of your stack about to go?

Since that is MUCH MORE LIKELY to happen than the 1% chance (ok, 0.8% chance) you have of flopping the flush, how many times can you AFFORD that play before you are in shove or fold mode?

....

THAT is "discussion", including "advice" on why something that just happened to "work" THIS TIME may not be the best thing to do very often at all...

When you respond to posts as you have above, it definately comes off as you simply re-acting in a knee jerk fashion to DEFEND your decisions. How about you type in WHY you think my "logic" is flawed, therefore my "advice" is "un-sound". THAT would be "discussion"...

Instead you come off as an ego driven player who happened to luck into a quite good flop against a bunch of idiots who are willing to stack themselves off lightly. I say ego driven because as soon as someone might have the termerity to mention that you may NOT have been "responsible" for your good fortune in this hand, it seems you get your hackles up.

Of course, you COULD counter by saying that I seem to have gotten my hackles up over your "slap" at JWK's use of a quote I "borrow" from TJ Cloutier quite often. I do not DISAGREE with you that JWK's use of that quote for this spot may not be the "best use" IF HE SAID BECAUSE OF THAT YOU SHOULD FOLD; JWK did not say that...

He merely tossed out that quote as a "truth" that means you really SHOULD be considering the chance you are beat NOW, thus drawing dead, and whether or not winning THIS POT is worth the risk of maybe losing your entire tourney "life".

Simply BECAUSE the TEV of a triple up (what you were looking at when your decision had to be made) is great enough, and your hand as 2nd nut is behind so little, in this spot a limp/stack off is probably appropriate.

I'd ask you THIS though:

Do you feel as confident that the A hi flush is NOT there if those 2 check/jammers behind you had re-shoved BEFORE you had to decide whether to keep going on 2nd nut?

Do you see any material difference in the risk level to your 2nd nut hand when faced with 4 people who feel their hand is good enough to stack off on, rather than 2?

Can you also see that playing QTs oop in a table dynamic which MAY present you with these big stack decisions is NOT a good idea, since you will flop a really STRONG HAND so infrequently?

Since you were looking for "discussion"...how aobut answering those questions please...
tl;dr just cba replying sorry

Actually I seen the bottom part where you asked me questions, so I guess I can answer these.

I would have most likely folded if FOUR people were all in infront of me yes, but the way it played out, the call was 'right' based on 2 shoves infront the way I read the hand and how they would shove/call based on the texture, and ofc the calls can be a nut slowplay but the odds of it actually BEING a nut slowplay is small, therefore with that risk analysis I made the call based on the action INFRONT of me.

Obviously there is SEVERE material difference as the 3rd or 4th callers will generally only be calling with set+/nuts :S

You can say that playing QTs is not a good idea when you base it around the strategy that you have obviously been accustomed to as you clearly mentioned above, but I find that in the tournament I was playing, if I flop a mediocre hand it is profitable because I can get away from it with crazy action infront, and can GENERALLY milk it when the right situation appears. If you aren't limping in with these hands early in a TURBO tournament to try and build a stack then imo you have serious leaks in your game. Do you think this hand is playable IP? I find your logic pretty flawed to say the least :\

I didn't mean any offense in my posts to anyone and I wasn't being arrogant in any way, although I could see how people might see it like that when im constantly trying to justify why I did what I did and saying I did this but not what you would have done 'because', but isnt that the whole POINT of analyzing a hand and this forum in general?

Last edited by Widzywidzy^^; Sat Aug 20, 2011 at 02:49 PM..
 
Old
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Sat Aug 20, 2011, 03:29 PM
(#19)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
tl;dr just cba replying sorry

Actually I seen the bottom part where you asked me questions, so I guess I can answer these.

I would have most likely folded if FOUR people were all in infront of me yes, but the way it played out, the call was 'right' based on 2 shoves infront the way I read the hand and how they would shove/call based on the texture, and ofc the calls can be a nut slowplay but the odds of it actually BEING a nut slowplay is small, therefore with that risk analysis I made the call based on the action INFRONT of me.

Obviously there is SEVERE material difference as the 3rd or 4th callers will generally only be calling with set+/nuts :S

You can say that playing QTs is not a good idea when you base it around the strategy that you have obviously been accustomed to as you clearly mentioned above, but I find that in the tournament I was playing, if I flop a mediocre hand it is profitable because I can get away from it with crazy action infront, and can GENERALLY milk it when the right situation appears. If you aren't limping in with these hands early in a TURBO tournament to try and build a stack then imo you have serious leaks in your game. Do you think this hand is playable IP? I find your logic pretty flawed to say the least :\

I didn't mean any offense in my posts to anyone and I wasn't being arrogant in any way, although I could see how people might see it like that when im constantly trying to justify why I did what I did and saying I did this but not what you would have done 'because', but isnt that the whole POINT of analyzing a hand and this forum in general?
My "analysis" is that you are too wrapped up in results, and not aware enough of the overall negative things your actions could end up doing to you...

You do not recognize the validity of anyone saying things to you which might help you overcome problem spots, and "Can't be arsed replying" to a simply statement that limping hands like QTs oop is NOT a good thing at a wildly aggressive table. There IS no arguement about that, it is BAD BAD BAD...

You want to limp those hands, do it in POSITION...

OOP is far to risky when everyone at your table hs a propensity to jam light, and will result far more often in you FOLDING, or making calls lightly, that will put you at severe risk.
 
Old
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Sun Aug 21, 2011, 05:51 AM
(#20)
NL_Niels's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 16
I agree with JWK. Limping with TQs in middle position is just too loose at this point in a tournament in my opinion. It's a hand that will too often get you in a spot like this, where you really can only fold. And when you do hit a flop, you'll usually only get called by a hand that beats you if you bet out. Long term this is not a profitable play in this context.

I'd be most worried about either of the callers behind you. The original shover I put on a set, but I think at least one of the callers after you has the nut flush.

Edit: ok, i missed everything after the first page of replies after posting this. At least I was right about the nut flush..

Last edited by NL_Niels; Sun Aug 21, 2011 at 05:59 AM..
 

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