Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions / Old Hand Analysis Section /

FLHE: KK in a 4 bet pot.

 
Old
Default
FLHE: KK in a 4 bet pot. - Thu Aug 18, 2011, 03:51 PM
(#1)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Read on villain: LAG, spews chips, bad player in general. 3 and 4 bets a ton of hands pre flop, never folding TP post flop, re-raises TP+ post flop but checks when he misses.
I put villain on TP: AJ, QJ, J9, J8, J7, or a flush draw of some sort.

Seat 1: mahe51 (3645 in chips)
Seat 2: GoldenXXL (2420 in chips)
Seat 3: atabá (1940 in chips)
Seat 4: Lok18 (2855 in chips)
Seat 5: PaidInFull6 (1960 in chips)
Seat 6: Mitko921115 (2210 in chips)
Seat 7: mfinder (3185 in chips)
Seat 8: Captain206 (2575 in chips)
Seat 9: pokr_king08 (2900 in chips)
pokr_king08: posts small blind 20
mahe51: posts big blind 40
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PaidInFull6 [Kd Kc]
GoldenXXL: folds
atabá: folds
Lok18: calls 40
PaidInFull6: raises 40 to 80
Mitko921115: raises 40 to 120
mfinder: folds
Captain206: folds
pokr_king08: folds
mahe51: folds
Lok18: folds
PaidInFull6: raises 40 to 160
Betting is capped
Mitko921115: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [4s 2s Jc]
PaidInFull6: bets 40
Mitko921115: raises 40 to 80
PaidInFull6: raises 40 to 120
Mitko921115: raises 40 to 160
Betting is capped
PaidInFull6: calls 40
*** TURN *** [4s 2s Jc] [Th]
PaidInFull6: bets 80
Mitko921115: raises 80 to 160
PaidInFull6: raises 80 to 240
Mitko921115: raises 80 to 320
Betting is capped
PaidInFull6: calls 80
*** RIVER *** [4s 2s Jc Th] [6h]
PaidInFull6: bets 80
Mitko921115: raises 80 to 160
PaidInFull6: raises 80 to 240
Mitko921115: raises 80 to 320
Betting is capped
PaidInFull6: calls 80

I played it like KK was the nuts, would like some other opinions on my play.
Would you re-raise post-flop? Is it worth 4 bets on every street or is this a spew?
 
Old
Default
Thu Aug 18, 2011, 08:24 PM
(#2)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Maybe slow down on the river and just call his raise?

Given the read on villains play capping all streets is fine, certainly capping all streets prior to the river. If he caps rivers with 1 pair then cap that too with KK, if not then just call his river raise imo.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 12:41 AM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,857
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
only hand I'm worried about is J 10...... and if after the 2 min raises on the turn, just call his min raise on the river.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 02:39 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Maybe slow down on the river and just call his raise?

Given the read on villains play capping all streets is fine, certainly capping all streets prior to the river. If he caps rivers with 1 pair then cap that too with KK, if not then just call his river raise imo.
Cannot disagree with this TOO much...versus as extreme a style as this guy has shown, KK as an over pair does stand to be a worthwhile value betting hand up thru a cap on all streets, with a river slow down your "save" spot in case he's binked a rag 2 pr, or hits a draw.

But I'd like to present an alternate line too...

Check the TURN lead. Consider...

Versus an extremely style like this, you are pretty vulnerable to a wide range of weird kicker draws, as well as the more "standard" draws which might be there on the T turn. In limit, you not only want to EXTRACT as much value as you can, but you also must work to minimize how many "extra" bets you have fed into the pot should a late street suck out happen. A turn check lead fills both these requirements nicely...

ACTION:

You check the T turn.
Villain, in his true aggro style, will likely BET.
You then CHECK/RAISE, putting in the 2nd bet.
In keeping with his maniac nature, Villain is almost certainly going to put in the 3rd bet for you.
You then CALL.

Why is it good for you to do this? Simple...

The board is chock full of a a LOT of potential draws that a maniac player will bet.
53, KQ, Q9, K9, 4x, , Jx, AQ, ANY 2 spades are all easily within the hugely wide aggro betting range of thelimit maniac here.

If ANY card comes which may "fill" one of those possible draws, you really need to be looking for "slow down" options for your single pair K's. "Saving" 1 bet on the TURN merely starts your slow down a little early...

BUT...

A turn line as I suggest ALSO will tend to increase the value you will get here when a threat card does NOT appear. How?

Well, a lot of this maniac's range is going to be tied up in DRAWS. If the draw he happens to have is NOT one which comes in, even a maniac can see there is no more chance for him to hit his draw on the river. Afterall, if the river comes a 9c, do you think even a MANIAC would bet 2 naked spades or a 53o?

By CHECKING, then check/raising the turn, you open it up for his maniac brain to think you MIGHT be bluffing. That may be all the reason he needs to fire hard into you on the river with air, because a lot of maniacs in NL rely on plays like those to win pots. That just does not work in Limit though (except agaisnt the most rampant draw chasers).

So the excellant thing about a turn check on the lead, followed by a C/R, is that it not only "saves" you a bet right up front in case you are already behind (or if a strong draw filling cards hits the riv, like the As), but it ALSO may be the "reason" a maniac needs to keep trying to bluff into you on a blank river.

So all in all, I think I'd much prefer that line, although the line TheLangolier mentions has merit too.

Last edited by JDean; Fri Aug 19, 2011 at 02:42 AM..
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 10:27 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Disagree. The fact that he's got tons of worse hands in his range (including draws) is exaxctly why we want to cap the betting on the turn. We are a solid favorite over any draw with 1 card to come. Since we will win the pot more than 50% of the time vs. any draw or actually any worse hand at this point, we make money off any bet that goes in the pot (+EV wagers). Limit hold'em is all about making +EV wagers. When we have a clear +EV spot we should maximize our investment, not doing so leaves money on the table.

The "slow down" on the river should only be if the guy won't cap with worse more than half the time. It's a judgement call, if he's still capping with worse 1 pair hands then it's going to be +EV to cap the river with him. Many hyper-aggro players like this won't do it though, they'll cap flop and turn with outs but if they haven't improved over their 1 pair hand will slow the river down. So whether or not we can profitably cap the river is a judgement call, but the turn is not, cap away.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 10:31 AM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Also, check/raising the turn doesn't look bluffy, it looks strong... It looks much more semi-bluffy if we're just barreling away.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 03:58 PM
(#7)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Considering I don't think I had seen him cap rivers with just 1 pair yet I probably should have slowed down on the river, although he may be willing to cap the river with worse, I haven't seen him do it. However, I had seen him cap flops and re-raise turns with just 1 pair, regardless of how strong his kicker was or the board texture, so I like pounding him over the head with value on the flop and turn.

JDean your saying to check raise the turn and lead the river, or check raise or check call the river?

I see your point about slowing down earlier to lose less when I'm beat but I have some concerns. I want to get 4 bets in vs Jx and charge straight or flush draws? If I check raise then call the 3rd bet I'll win less when he has these hands. Although it's not in his nature if I check that would give aggro guy the opportunity to take a free card with draws, I capped preflop and on the flop, he could change his mind up and decide to check back 5s3s, or KQ figuring I'm not folding and he cant have the best hand.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 05:01 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
If you are a favorite to win on the turn, you're not saving a bet by not capping it, you're costing yourself Sklanksy bucks.

If we are 65% favorite for example:

-If we wager 4 bets with the villain, we would have an expected return of 5.2 bets on this street's wagers for a profit of 1.2 on this street
-If we wager 3 bets, we have an expected return 3.9 bets on this streets wagers for a profit of .9 bets on this street.

Only getting 3 bets in on this street instead of 4, when a 65% favorite, costs us .3 big bets in long term profit (expectation).

Saving a turn bet when you get drawn out on or are losing is not worth it when you are the favorite, you're actually costing yourself money over the long run, not making or retaining money.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 05:04 PM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I'm saying check/raise the turn, leaving yourself the option of keeping it a 3 bet turn, not a capped turn...this is only because you want to SAVE a bet in case you are behind now.

You check the turn, and check/call a threatening card, check/raise a blank...

A blank on the river that still sees the villain firing into you means a STRONGER chance he is ahead...

Since you are not "as ready" to cap the river on "just" KK since the villain has barrelled ALL THE WAY. Doing this and saving your 1 bet on the turn leaves you more open to capping a blank river.

End result:
you "lose" 1 bet if you are ahead...but that 1 bet comes on the TURN, rather than the RIVER.

I do not believe that even a moron who has capped it every street, and is STILL willing to cap the river on a blank, CANNOT beat a 1 pair hand a lot of the time. As such, I'd be pretty loathe to cap the river anyway...thus meaning I'm probably losing 2 BETS by leading every street the whole way...

The way I suggest, you are saving 1 bet NOW, with the possibility of saving more on the river if it comes bad for you. If it comes good for you, that SINGLE bet you are "saving" equates to EXTRA VALUE in the pot for you if the river were to go like this:

YOU bet
Villain RAISES
You CALL (because he has now barrelled every street, including the blank river)...

I am sorry Dave, I just do NOT think that even a barrelling moron is NOT on better than 1 pair often enough to make it a good idea for me to allow it to cap all the way thru to the river a whole lot of the time.

The way I suggest "saves" 1 bet on the turn, in lieu of trying to "save" 2 bets on the river, or maybe losing both those bets in a threatening situation.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 05:12 PM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
If you are a favorite to win on the turn, you're not saving a bet by not capping it, you're costing yourself Sklanksy bucks.

If we are 65% favorite for example:

-If we wager 4 bets with the villain, we would have an expected return of 5.2 bets on this street's wagers for a profit of 1.2 on this street
-If we wager 3 bets, we have an expected return 3.9 bets on this streets wagers for a profit of .9 bets on this street.

Only getting 3 bets in on this street instead of 4, when a 65% favorite, costs us .3 big bets in long term profit (expectation).

Saving a turn bet when you get drawn out on or are losing is not worth it when you are the favorite, you're actually costing yourself money over the long run, not making or retaining money.

Key is Dave...we do not KNOW if we ARE ahead on the turn!

Even a moron can spike a 2nd pair!

If we rush all 4 bets in on the turn, yes...we get max value if we are AHEAD.

BUT...

We also are committing ourselves to saying we are going to cap again on a blank RIVER, despite the fact we would have now seen the villain barrell the pot on EVERY STREET. Since even an idiot can wake up with a hand, this is simply too risky to do!

YES...I concede that if we ARE facing "just a draw", and if that draw does NOT hit the river, we are losing a turn bet we may have gotten. That is not good for us...

But the sheer aggression shown in this hand must leave us open to the chance we are beat right now...thus capping ANY STREET by us is a mistake.

that is the basis why I say I am not fussed by the line taken in the hand really: we do not know, so capping all streets, except slowing down and not capping the river, MIGHT be a decent way to go. BUT...

I think the line I am proposing will save us from losing even MORE BETS if we are beaten threat card comes we can check/call the river, saving 4 bets total), or if we do see a threat card river, at the "cost" of a single lost value bet...

To me, that seems a valid trade off.
 
Old
Default
Fri Aug 19, 2011, 08:02 PM
(#11)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Key is Dave...we do not KNOW if we ARE ahead on the turn!
Yes we do. Obviously we don't know his exact cards and we are not ahead of 100% of his possible holdings, but given the villain as described we are clearly ahead of his range in total imo.

Quote:
If we rush all 4 bets in on the turn, yes...we get max value if we are AHEAD.
Which we are, ahead of his range of hands he's willing to put 4 bets in with.

Quote:
We also are committing ourselves to saying we are going to cap again on a blank RIVER,
Why? No we're not. Judgement call... if the guy will cap the river with top pair no kicker, then it should be profitable to cap again on the river. If he won't, or we don't think he will, then we should only go 2 bets not 4.

Quote:
But the sheer aggression shown in this hand must leave us open to the chance we are beat right now...thus capping ANY STREET by us is a mistake.
Sorry, but this is just wrong. Re-read the description of the villain. If we rate to be ahead, which I believe we do, then we should wager as much as we possible can. That's how you make money in limit hold'em, making as many +EV wagers as possible.

Quote:
To me, that seems a valid trade off.
You're trading off some profit (EV) to lower variance is what you're doing in effect. It's not a good trade off if you like money.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com