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did that just happen

 
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did that just happen - Mon Aug 29, 2011, 01:18 AM
(#1)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151


I guess I shoulda folded preflop since KK is such an underdog to 97s when im the one holding it.

Super deep ITM in the bigger 2.20 $10k gtd.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 02:15 AM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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You deviate from a "standard" bet line throughout this hand.

A "standard" line would be to raise roughly 2.5BB to 3BB, plus 1BB per limper (and maybe a bit for the antes).

You elect to re-raise by making it 9BB to go.

Also, a "standard" flop bet seeks to DENY ODDS, but INVITE a call.

To deny odds to the strongest likely draw on the flop (9 out flush draw), you'd need to bet only about 1/3rd the pot.

Your deviation from these "standards" leads to an EARLIER committment than the more normal line would bring, BUT...


The RESULTS of this hand, Villain calling a UTG raise then a LARGE RE-RAISE with a hand that is going to flop DRAWS as a large part of its strength, may well indicate that you are facing a huge calling station with little "stack awareness".

Someone who will do such a stupid thing (the villain's stupid thing) when your pre-flop re-raise nullifies any chance he has of playing a "cheap" pot if he flops a draw, is probably doing this more than just once.

As such, despite not saying so, can we all assume you knew this guy was a calling station, hence you bet larger than standard to extract more value?

Your hand, KK, is certainly strong enough to justify moving away from a standard betting line if by doing so you are seeking to exploit a read.

Versus a Calling Station, the deviations you made here certainly make good sense since they all put MORE value into the pot for you if he calls.

More value in is obviously GOOD for you, since there is a pretty low chance that you will not hold the best hand on most flops.


After starting your exploitative line (if it was that), you see the 2 diamond flop.

That flop dictates that you MUST bet something nearly all the time, if only to prevent 100% free draws for your villain.

Again, your 80% pot bet is larger than standard (33% is all that is needed to deny odds, and 50% is more standard vs. a likely 8 or 9 out draws), but if you are exploiting a C.S., that is not a bad at all because it gets more vlaue in and still looks "inviting" to the brain dead C.S. palyer with diamonds.

A "plus" of raising that amount as well, is that if Villain attempts to semi-bluff shove on you, your call decison while well ahead is made extremely easy by your bet.


When villain does shove, he has only AA (obviously a possibility, but a tiny part of his possible range), 33 (a weak hand to call a raise and a re-raise on), or 77 (within a C.S.'s range, but obviously a weak hand to call a raise and re-raise on too).

With no "reasonable" player sticking aorund with an un-paired 7 in this pot, you've no reason whatsoever to NOT put him on some kind of flush draw, or combo gut shot/flush draw at WORSE, or an under-pair to your KK. that makes your call of his jam pretty easy and "right" way more often that it isn't going to be...


So while your betting line may not be "standard", this hand IS a pretty "standard" cooler for you.

Well played, bad luck.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 09:34 AM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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I agree with JD.... especially if the person was a calling station. A standard line is going to work better against a better opponent, but against a calling station, I'm raising my bets too, to get more value. Bad luck with a cooler hand.

You luckily still had about 9bb left and hopefully you found a decent hand to jam them into.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 11:10 AM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
A "standard" line would be to raise roughly 2.5BB to 3BB, plus 1BB per limper (and maybe a bit for the antes).
Think you misread the hand, this is standard bet sizing for the first raiser but he's not raising limpers, he's 3-betting an open raiser. His 3b sizing is pretty standard.

You did, however, save this post from being moved to the proper forum. Why you want to waste time analyzing a bad beat complaint to that level is beyond me though.

Last edited by TheLangolier; Mon Aug 29, 2011 at 11:14 AM..
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 12:54 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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duh...very true. They were NOT limpers

Still, with the initial raise being BARELY above a min raise, and with the call putting the pot around 7k total, a re-raise amount right around pot is more standard. That usually equates to 2.5 to 3BB, plus 1 per limper.

And obviously, the CS nature of the Villain doesnt change reasoning for over raising.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 02:09 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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If he clicked a raise pot button, his 3b would be 14735 to go by my count. If he just raises the size of the pot when it gets to him (not counting his "call" like a pot sized raise would) it was 9555 when action came back to him so raising that much more would be 12495 (which is essentialy what he did, 12.6K to go).

Standard 3b sizing starts in the neighborhood of 3x the original raisers bet. There are factors that might dicate adjusting that up or down, and in this case some factors are present to adjust it up: There is a cold caller (so there's more in the pot now and we are not 3b 1 player but 2), we are out of position, and at least 1 fish has shown an interest.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 02:11 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
and with the call putting the pot around 7k total.
When the action comes back to hero, the pot contains 9555 not 7K.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 02:47 PM
(#8)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I agree with JD.... especially if the person was a calling station. A standard line is going to work better against a better opponent, but against a calling station, I'm raising my bets too, to get more value. Bad luck with a cooler hand.

You luckily still had about 9bb left and hopefully you found a decent hand to jam them into.

AQs hand after jammed vs 77 and lost flip. Weeeeeeeeeeeee
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 02:49 PM
(#9)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Also just thought id mention that my sizing was based on extracting maximum value from a complete scrub station, didn't think it'd be 97s tho!
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 06:47 PM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
Also just thought id mention that my sizing was based on extracting maximum value from a complete scrub station, didn't think it'd be 97s tho!
and with that statement...

Your line is quite good.

KK is plenty strong to bet more versus someone who will call light.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 08:46 PM
(#11)
FLsnookman's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 565
Hi widz, please dont take this as any kind of teaching as I am still relatively new to this game and both JD and Lango are many,many levels above me concerning poker knowledge. That said in tourny play in that spot I shove all in almost every time just to avoid seeing a flop. I suppose I lose a lot of value that way but to my mind it is better to call a monster with a drawing hand because if you hit you get paid but its harder to call for all your chips with a drawing hand. Again, this is probably horrible advice but its just my 2 cents worth. Feel free to thrash my limited knowledge and see you out there.
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 09:42 PM
(#12)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Widzywidzy^^ View Post
AQs hand after jammed vs 77 and lost flip. Weeeeeeeeeeeee
AQs in that situation, I can't get my chips into the pot fast enough!
 
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Mon Aug 29, 2011, 09:47 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLsnookman View Post
Hi widz, please dont take this as any kind of teaching as I am still relatively new to this game and both JD and Lango are many,many levels above me concerning poker knowledge. That said in tourny play in that spot I shove all in almost every time just to avoid seeing a flop. I suppose I lose a lot of value that way but to my mind it is better to call a monster with a drawing hand because if you hit you get paid but its harder to call for all your chips with a drawing hand. Again, this is probably horrible advice but its just my 2 cents worth. Feel free to thrash my limited knowledge and see you out there.
Snook, against a real opp, I agree with you 100%, as I'd push preflop. Against a station, I want max value out of every single hand so that I can get rid of them...... which makes me like their line...... just like fishing..... string them along just enough to get me als many of their chips as I can get... but the hero got extremely unlucky!

If you assume the opp has a clue (which a station doesn't) then you're absolutely correct... and is how I'd play it against you or anyone else in the tank... since I know basically all of you DO havae a clue.
 
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Tue Aug 30, 2011, 03:04 AM
(#14)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Snook,

The villain in the hand made an awful mistake calling a raise and a re-raise to speculate with a drawing hand.

If OP had raised SMALLER, then there might be a tiny possibility he could get a decent implied odds situation, provided he sees the OP as someone who will check monsters often enough to give free cards. But basd on the hands OP put in the HA forum, I seriously doubt his table image was going to lead any villain to that conclusion, nor do I think OP would be dumb enough to CHECK a big un-improved 1 pair hand.

So essentially on deep money, you are folding out all but the biggest hands you are ahead of with KK; QQ/AK and MAYBE JJ call, but TT and under would find it quite hard after flatting the initial riase to call a jam. Plus, if villain did have AA, then a jam puts OP in a terrible spot. I mean seriously, do you REALLY want AQ/AJ/TT/99 and those types of hands FOLDING when you have KK?

Sure occasionally, very very rarely, when the C.S. donk is too stubborn to fold, the OP will lose big. But c'mon...he is going to flop trips what, maybe 1 time in 75, he will flop 2 pair maybe 1 time in 50, and a set (if he starts with a pp at all) maybe 1 time in 8.5?

http://www.checktheodds.com/flopodds.html <= chack that out.

97s will flop BETTER than KK roughly 5.1% of the time, when you combine ALL the possibilites he will make 2 pair, trips, a straight or a flush on the flop.

Consider that he will flop a DRAW roughly 19% of the time, and being stupid enough to call the big raise and re-raise, he will probably follow up his stupidity by calling FURTHER bets to chase those draws, the Villain is also going to lose BIG 2/3rds of the time he flops the most likely hand for 97s...a draw. don't you WANT to give him a chance to lose big to you? I know I would want to...

So the OP bet quite well versus a station, and since OP put in that he bet as he did because he knew the guy was a station, he is going to win far more in the long run by taking the line he did, than doing anything else.
 

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