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Folding Aces

 
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Folding Aces - Thu Sep 08, 2011, 09:52 AM
(#1)
fuzzmuff's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
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My AA early on got stopped by a flop of KK2. It's quite psossible I was bluffed into folding my A's by my opponent, going by his later play. Should I have played this any different?

 
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Thu Sep 08, 2011, 04:56 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Yes, raise smaller pre...

When you open for 5BB you run the risk of not getting any action for your monster hand at a disciplined table. That is not good.

(Note: if your table is extremely loose in calling raises to take flops, then your larger raise does hold more credbility, but there are still drawbacks. Read on...)

When you raise larger pre, you also build the pot so that all subsequent actions cost you more chips. Yes, AA is a very good hand, and it WANTS a "big pot" especially pre-flop, but on the flop it is quite often "just 1 pair".

This means a larger pot built via a pre-flop raise which will tend to not be called very often does put you at risk for large bluff stabs which you may be reluctant to call...

In this spot for instance:

A King is certainly in the call range of many opponents.
He was willing to 4Bet you on that flop, so you must consider there is a good chance he is not bluffing.
If he isn't, you are drawing to 2 outs.

I do not see your fold as "wrong" at all, it is a good disciplined decision, and may well be the right thing to do here, but consider...

Had you bet less pre-flop, say around 2.2 to 2.5BB to go in the middle stages, or 3BB in the early stages, might you have been able to see that 4Bet be considerably smaller?

Might you have then been more willing to CALL, since your hand did contain pretty strong calling value?

As played, you must worry a lot more about the pot growing to a point where you are facing a decision for your entire stack, and early on in an MTT, that is not a decision you really want to face very often.
 
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Thu Sep 08, 2011, 05:18 PM
(#3)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Personally, I would have C bet the flop. When I have an over pair I find it's much easier for me to find correct folds on paired boards when I bet out and put my opponent to a decision. If I think a King is in villains range, I feel much more comfortable taking a bet and fold to re-raise line, than I do checking. If you check it invites him to bluff at you, which is bad if you cant call his bluff. Your check left you with no more info than you had before, he could have a King but he could also have complete air, for those reasons I would just lead out on the flop.

Also, If I do check it's not with the intention of check raising, that play served to only get you action from hands that beat you. If he has a King or a full house he will continue, if he is bluffing he's gonna fold now that you raised.
 
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Thu Sep 08, 2011, 07:25 PM
(#4)
fuzzmuff's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 24
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[QUOTE=JDean;300274]Yes, raise smaller pre...

When you open for 5BB you run the risk of not getting any action for your monster hand at a disciplined table. That is not good.


Cheers. Will think more about my pre flop raising and keeping the pot smaller, though small pre flop raises seem to get quite a few callers, which I hate facing when I've got A's, but will give it a go.

Last edited by fuzzmuff; Thu Sep 08, 2011 at 07:44 PM.. Reason: to put more reply in
 
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Thu Sep 08, 2011, 08:36 PM
(#5)
fuzzmuff's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaidInFull6 View Post
Personally, I would have C bet the flop. When I have an over pair I find it's much easier for me to find correct folds on paired boards when I bet out and put my opponent to a decision. If I think a King is in villains range, I feel much more comfortable taking a bet and fold to re-raise line, than I do checking. If you check it invites him to bluff at you, which is bad if you cant call his bluff. Your check left you with no more info than you had before, he could have a King but he could also have complete air, for those reasons I would just lead out on the flop.

Also, If I do check it's not with the intention of check raising, that play served to only get you action from hands that beat you. If he has a King or a full house he will continue, if he is bluffing he's gonna fold now that you raised.
Yeah you're probably right. Usually would C bet, but thought I'd check raise him out of the hand, as he seemed to bet on anything, only for him to go and raise back. In fact, as I type, someone raised my A4s bb, I call and check the K94 flop, but he checks, and I bet on turn 8 and win the pot. So, obviously, you know what you are on about mate
 
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Thu Sep 08, 2011, 11:00 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzmuff View Post
Yeah you're probably right. Usually would C bet, but thought I'd check raise him out of the hand, as he seemed to bet on anything, only for him to go and raise back. In fact, as I type, someone raised my A4s bb, I call and check the K94 flop, but he checks, and I bet on turn 8 and win the pot. So, obviously, you know what you are on about mate

Ask yourself will worse hands call your check-raise or will better hands fold? Usually c-bet is good but if the guy bets on anything (bluff's frequently) then checking is fine too, but take a check-call line to induce more of his favorite mistake, the bluff. I'd check/call all 3 streets if taking this line vs. a big bluffer.
 
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Sat Sep 10, 2011, 02:41 AM
(#7)
Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
This is all player history dependant and before making any decisions in this hand you must ask yourself these questions.

1) Is this player capable of triple barrelling you with air?
2) Is this player typically slow-playing or fast-playing flopped trips vs a pf 5x raise?

If the answer to 1) is yes and the answer to 2) is slow-playing, you should be v-betting every street, or check calling every street if you think the chance that he will bet higher than he should be when triple barrelling is over 50%.

The goofy 3bet otf screams trips and I would probably be taking the same line you did IF I made the checkraise that you did, which I never would, as it is a super -EV play. I would never be MIN checkraising full stop tbh. If you do decide to checkraise (which again, not a good idea) you should be making it like 400 to see exactly where he is at. If he calls I would be worried and be ready to check/fold to big bets on later streets. If he raises, ask yourself if he is slow-playing or fast-playing trips here. If you can be sure the answer is slow-playing you can safely continue in this hand as you crush his range, if the answer is fast-playing its a snapfold. Checkraising is also really horrible here as you are OOP and checking after checkraising will just look like you tried to take a stab at it and he might wrongly feel that he is infact ahead with midpair range and forced to bet OTT, giving you another horrible decision.

There is merit here to betting out OOP and is pretty much the standard line to take, you'll generally get more info about what you are up against this way also. Again here, if raised, ask yourself 2) and decide how to proceed. If you have no info on this player it becomes a bit of a guessing game if he decides to fire out on later streets, and you have to decide if you want to be conservative or aggressive.. This is all based on situational tournament play, such as how close you are to ITM, how much of an edge you feel you have over the rest of the table, if you feel you have to accumulate a stack early etc.

You can also decide to check-call every street which I don't really mind if you think hes capable of 1) but it probably isn't going to do you any favours in the long run.

Edit: Also obv 5x is wrong pf, make it 3x, just thought id throw that in incase people were like 'wtf widzy you didn't even bring up the wrong raise sizing lololol!'

Last edited by Widzywidzy^^; Sat Sep 10, 2011 at 02:44 AM..
 

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