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AK flush draw shove on flop

 
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AK flush draw shove on flop - Fri Sep 09, 2011, 02:33 AM
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fuzzmuff's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 24
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Was this the correct thing to do and what are the odds etc surrounding this play coz odds and all that are still a bit fuzzy to me? Think I read Doyle Brunson once saying in this situation all his chips would be in the middle. I should add that this was a few hands after the money had been reached, so the table had slowed right down, got very tight, and at this point it was pretty easy for anyone picking up blinds with any raise 2 - 2.5x bb.


Last edited by fuzzmuff; Fri Sep 09, 2011 at 03:07 AM.. Reason: Just to add a bit about table image.
 
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Fri Sep 09, 2011, 03:19 AM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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Shove preflop.

There was a late position raise and a call. You're out of position with a huge hand that's way ahead of those ranges. ...and if you're flipping, oh well. On the other hand by flatting you keep all the hands you dominate in. The problem is that you're out of position with a kind of awkward stack size. Since being out of position sucks I think I'd try to negate that by getting it in pre. Another option would be to 3-bet to 5k but then you're probably not doing too hot against his 4-bet range and would be priced in. If called shove any flop since you should have about a pot-sized stack. (This is a go-and-go play)

As played, check-raise all in on that flop. You have a monster draw, nut flush draw with top two overs. You have AK so AA and KK are super unlikely (only three combos of each), as is any hand with a 4 in it or 55. You're flipping against overpairs and ahead of all other draws (especially 67/78 clubs which is a straight-flush draw but will gladly get it in and be way behind you, as well as QJ/JT clubs which is also flush draw with two overs). You have a stack that is about 3x the pot which is bad for leading out but excellent for check-raising all in. With all the dead money in the pot a flip is very +EV. I think check-raise is better than donk-leading because it allows the original raiser to continue with his whole range whereas if you donk out you allow him to fold his weak hands.

All your chips should be in the middle, but not by shoving 3x the pot on the flop. Give your opponents a chance to put some money in before you shove. You don't even need fold equity for this super +EV shove.
 
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Fri Sep 09, 2011, 05:27 PM
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fuzzmuff's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Shove preflop.

There was a late position raise and a call. You're out of position with a huge hand that's way ahead of those ranges. ...and if you're flipping, oh well. On the other hand by flatting you keep all the hands you dominate in. The problem is that you're out of position with a kind of awkward stack size. Since being out of position sucks I think I'd try to negate that by getting it in pre. Another option would be to 3-bet to 5k but then you're probably not doing too hot against his 4-bet range and would be priced in. If called shove any flop since you should have about a pot-sized stack. (This is a go-and-go play)

As played, check-raise all in on that flop. You have a monster draw, nut flush draw with top two overs. You have AK so AA and KK are super unlikely (only three combos of each), as is any hand with a 4 in it or 55. You're flipping against overpairs and ahead of all other draws (especially 67/78 clubs which is a straight-flush draw but will gladly get it in and be way behind you, as well as QJ/JT clubs which is also flush draw with two overs). You have a stack that is about 3x the pot which is bad for leading out but excellent for check-raising all in. With all the dead money in the pot a flip is very +EV. I think check-raise is better than donk-leading because it allows the original raiser to continue with his whole range whereas if you donk out you allow him to fold his weak hands.

All your chips should be in the middle, but not by shoving 3x the pot on the flop. Give your opponents a chance to put some money in before you shove. You don't even need fold equity for this super +EV shove.
Thanks for your views. I don't always like to just shove AK on any flop, for instance if that flop had been all red, I would slow right down if I got called after shot at the flop. Had I re raised pre I think both those guys would be calling, and if I totally miss the flop, with more than one caller still in, my AK tends not to be that great anymore. I also usually only shove AK pf very late in tournaments when blinds are huge, or if at some point earlier I'm very short stacked.

Check-raise on the flop is definitely on in this case, and maybe I should give them a chance to fire at it as I'm going in anyways.

Your very last sentance - what does it actually mean? As I said, I'm a complete novice when it come to understanding odds, equity, fold equity etc. I mean what is +EV (may be shocking to some that I don't know but there you go)
 
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Sat Sep 10, 2011, 03:00 AM
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Widzywidzy^^'s Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 151
Shove pre, AKs OOP plays really badly, and worse 3way, and with stack sizes the way they are this could be mistaken for a resteal squeeze or even a hand that his range dominates. Either way your ahead of their range and you gotta get it in here.
 
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Sat Sep 10, 2011, 04:37 AM
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oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
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You can win a hand in two ways: Showing down the best hand or getting everyone else to fold. Fold equity has to do with the amount of the time you can take the pot down without a showdown. In this spot you can shove and even if he calls you 100% of the time, you are still expected to gain chips on average. EV = expected value, so +EV is positive expected value, i.e. you gain chips.

As for whether or not to shove preflop... You're out of position which is huge. By shoving you take away your positional disadvantage. Also, big card hands like AK perform best when they get to see all 5 cards. You're close to a coinflip to beat a smaller pocket pair by the river, but you'll only make a pair on the flop about 1/3 of the time. If you were on the button I think you have more options, like flat-calling or small 3-bet, but out of position with about 6k in the pot, and 19k behind this is such a perfect squeezing spot you just have to go for it. You have huge fold equity with your stack size and it's highly unlikely both of those guys have hands they can stack off with pre. Also, preflop is your best chance to get value from AQ and AJ.
 

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