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Knowledge and Application

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Knowledge and Application - Thu Sep 15, 2011, 11:45 AM
(#1)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Hey gang,

Struggling away here as my stats clearly show. I have been watching and rewatching quite a few of Dave's training sessions trying to get a handle, and find my "Line".

I am starting to realize, at this point, that when I am railing a player that my ranging and reads are excellent. Place a couple of cards in front of me, and I become a blithering idiot.

Overplaying hands, misreading and folding to weaker holdings.. It's been driving me.crazy!!

Is this a bit like golf where "Analysis / Paralysis is deadly?? Partly I belleve.

I have considered many times hiding my hole cards with a post it note but I feel I am not quite ready for such a move. Although it may "Un-muddy my Line". Had some very minor success in the Sunday Storm, sit n go's and cash ring tables. But bottom line, my play is all over the place.

Cannot find that mysterious "Line" I refer to. Applying the knowledge that I do have.

Maybe just a few days COMPLETELY off to let the training sink in and give myself the mental break needed is the answer.

All thoughts welcome,

Enjoy,

Dale
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 12:20 PM
(#2)
gatehouse999's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 259
IMO you are a tight and steady player looking to take the next step. Although I am prob not at the same standard as you yet Dale, " the next step" is so hard, my example of this is moving to the Prem and finding life oh so tough in it. I think your game is progressing nicely from what I have seen. I railled you on the sunday storm and you were playing well from what I saw. Best of luck to you sir. Gate
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 12:41 PM
(#3)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatehouse999 View Post
IMO you are a tight and steady player looking to take the next step. Although I am prob not at the same standard as you yet Dale, " the next step" is so hard, my example of this is moving to the Prem and finding life oh so tough in it. I think your game is progressing nicely from what I have seen. I railled you on the sunday storm and you were playing well from what I saw. Best of luck to you sir. Gate
Thanks Gate, I think....

You are dead on here. I am trying to expand from playing ABC poker and trying to recognize weakness and then exploit it.

Maybe my expectations for the speed at which this transition will happen is grossly misplaced.

And, there is still which maybe the biggest issue...Why do I become a donk/idiot once two cards are place in front of me.

Thanks again Gate,

Dale
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 01:03 PM
(#4)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Hi guys,

I do not know if either of you have had the chance to watch the Chris Moneymaker videos on the site but IMO they are a revelation of how to play in MTTs and go deep.

Now whether any of this applies to the Open or even the Premier league is doubtful in my opinion (although it could account for some of the strange plays I have seen in the Open League), but I would say it is worth the look.

I had a good long chat with Dale the other evening (I cannot remember which evening though hiccup) and we came to the opinion that anything with a 4 in it was the new nuts. The next day I got hammered every league tourney I played, hands I would never play would have won about 30% of hands, twice I folded A8 only for the flop to be AA8, all these sorts of things and every hand I did play hit a blank.

It improved a bit yesterday but I am playing very passively; point in case, near the bubble last tourney, could easily have folded to 500th or so and this would have been aided by the fact there were three others in the top 100 at the table burning the clock and folding.

So I get Ks UTG and I do the worse thing possible, I limp. I wish i could explain why i limped but my thought process at the time was that if I 3 or 4 bet and one of the other nits raises me I am jiggered and I was really afraid of an Ace coming as it always seems to do when I get Ks.

Two others limp and then the button ships his bigger stack. I decide to call because he is weak and has been playing ATC. Dooh! I am ahead, he has A4 and hits the A on the turn. End of tourney for me and just set fire to at least 40 points!

If I had shoved he might have folded, he may not have, but I will never know now. All I do know is that it was a shove and I folded.

We probably all know what we should be doing, the problem is doing it when we should.

Just gotta keep trying.

TC
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 01:10 PM
(#5)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Hi guys,


I had a good long chat with Dale the other evening (I cannot remember which evening though hiccup) and we came to the opinion that anything with a 4 in it was the new nuts. The next day I got hammered every league tourney I played, hands I would never play would have won about 30% of hands, twice I folded A8 only for the flop to be AA8, all these sorts of things and every hand I did play hit a blank.


TC
We did???

Dale
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 01:18 PM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
Well I talked, you sort of gurgled between mouthfuls of beer
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 01:22 PM
(#7)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
Well I talked, you sort of gurgled between mouthfuls of beer

Moi???

LMFAO

Dale
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 04:56 PM
(#8)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Just spend more time at the tables and build more experience. Every once and a while take a break for a few days and let it all sink in. Think about how you have been playing and relive any particular hands that stand out to you. If you have Holdem Manager or something similar delve into your stats and try analyzing your play.

Also, when at the tables just try actively working on staying calm and unemotional. Try to not let the highs and the lows rattle you.
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 06:09 PM
(#9)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
An update and couple thoughts...

Played the 200pm Prem game and finished in 26 of 505. Nice change of fortune.

But, this was done with considerable luck Yep, luck.

I will describe the lucky hand since I messed up and can no longer post it

BB at 100

-luck- position, on the button
-luck- being dealt AA
-luck- seeing a early positon 3x raise
-luck-.3 betting 3x the original raise and having it called (a bit scary??)
-luck- the flop shows 3 9 J
-luck- large bet from original raiser
-luck- shoving and having it called
-luck- villain shows QQ
-luck- turn shows an A
-luck- aces hold (and improve) and i get an early double up

So, if you haven't figured out the jist of this post it's about the mostly unspoken...

LUCK

Look at how many "Lucky" things happened in this hand for me to get the precious early double up.

I did play well after to get as deep as I did, much easier with the early chip bump. Only 2, by my count anyway, leaks. Quite good considering you could have dumped your boiling spagetti noodles on me and none would have hit the floor. Leaking like a collander...a sieve

My thoughts now are around one thing....

Did I range, read and play well or.....did I just run well and get lucky??

Time will tell.

Enjoy,

Dale

Last edited by dale442; Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 11:15 PM..
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 06:52 PM
(#10)
RockerguyAA's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,089
BronzeStar
Winning large tournaments always takes a lot of luck. It also takes a lot of skill (usually!). It takes a mix of both. Anything can happen and that is what makes poker so compelling. Anyone can win a big tournament, even if some players have a large skill edge.

Just look at Jamie Gold... he won millions when he placed first in the WSOP main event.... and he is a mega donkey in my opinion haha! He ran insanely good and the only trick up his sleeve was telling people he had a good hand when he really did have a good hand!

In the long run luck will roughly average out to neither good or bad so don't give it too much weight in your analysis of your play. NH though, always nice when AA holds up!
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 09:55 PM
(#11)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by dale442 View Post
An update and couple thoughts...

Played the 200pm Prem game and finished in 26 of 505. Nice change of fortune.

But, this was done with considerable luck Yep, luck.

I will describe the lucky hand since I messed up and can no longer post it

BB at 100

-luck- position, in the BB
-luck- being dealt AA
-luck- seeing a early positon 3x raise
-luck-.3 betting 3x the original raise and having it called (a bit scary??)
-luck- the flop shows 3 9 J
-luck- large bet from original raiser
-luck- shoving and having it called
-luck- villain shows QQ
-luck- turn shows an A
-luck- aces hold (and improve) and i get an early double up

So, if you haven't figured out the jist of this post it's about the mostly unspoken...

LUCK

Look at how many "Lucky" things happened in this hand for me to get the precious early double up.

I did play well after to get as deep as I did, much easier with the early chip bump. Only 2, by my count anyway, leaks. Quite good considering you could have dumped your boiling spagetti noodles on me and none would have hit the floor. Leaking like a collander...a sieve

My thoughts now are around one thing....

Did I range, read and play well or.....did I just run well and get lucky??

Time will tell.

Enjoy,

Dale

Dale on the "luck" hand here a couple observations if I could and one question.

First observation is that I would push for maybe 4 or 5x betting the original pre-flop raise here.

Question is you were BB and QQ hand was EP the way you have it here but you have him/her leading out with a big bet post flop. So the question is did you check to them for the check raise play? If so I'm not a big advocate of that myself,but know that others see it differently.

Last observation to the hand is that you didn't so much get lucky as the player holding QQ was unlucky to have his Q's run into your A's. He was coolered,doesn't mean you were lucky. Basically from your end it's a super-standard overpair hand holding up.

Rockerguy is dead on. ANY deep run in a tournament is going to involve a mixture of skill and luck. You have to play well,have your big favorite hands hold almost every time (no misses as the shorter stack in any all-in showdowns obviously...),win most of your flips and even then you're usually going to have to get stone lucky a couple times as well. That's why it's a dicey proposition to rely on MTT play alone to build a roll,unless you're well funded to survive the inevitable dry patches that are intrinsic to MTT play.

As to the tenor of the thread here when I read you saying that you can read and recognize better when you aren't personally involved in the game than when you are then I have to think that maybe you are getting too emotionally attached to the games in which you're involved. I struggle with that myself as my Hyper-competitive nature can be my worst enemy at times.

The old saw about not allowing yourself to be results oriented is an old saw because of the truism within. That is NOT to say that you shouldn't be focused on results and improving them as far as your game results over large samples go and think that improvement is not important. Of course it is. Being a winning player is what I should think that anyone investing their time here in the School is shooting for after all. The results that you simply can't allow yourself to get overly caught up in though are individual hands in which you made the right plays and still lost. It's going to happen. A lot. Nature of the beast.

The analysis vs. paralysis dilemma is a good point. I think that we all,every one of us,have plenty of room to improve our games. I think if you asked the Iveys,Negreanus and Hellmuths of the world that they would say the same thing (OK maybe not Hellmuth...). But at what point does trying to take in information become too much at a given time and lead to a sort of vapor lock? That's really for each of us to find on our own I guess.

To my way of thinking as long as one is playing away in the micro stakes they can take their time in incorporating new tactics and growing/expanding their tool box beyond mastering a solid ABC TAG game. The reason I say this is that IMO the vast majority of players in the micros are weak enough that keeping to a strict ABC TAG line for the most part is really what you want to be doing. You don't typically have to try and beat a bad player,just wait for them to beat themselves. Trying to get fancy with them usually just gets you in trouble and it's not necessary anyway because they aren't likely to have the type of thought process in their game where using more advanced moves are even necessary anyway. I usually found that in the micros the other good players were likely to be taking very ABC TAG type lines themselves so they would typically become readily identifiable.

So I think a good rule of thumb for a player at the level most of us are on would be to master and really hone the basics of good,consistent TAG play first. Then start to fold in the elements of what will be necessary to grow your game piece by piece. Take a concept/tactic,work on it,analyze the hands in which you utilized it and look for ways that opponents may try to counteract your moves. Get it down to where it's a solid,dependable part of your arsenal. Then add another piece and rinse and repeat. This should help deal with the "system overload" feelings that you seem to be having.

Whenever I get to feeling like I'm trying to take in too much,too fast, I always go back in my mind to a sampler a friend of mine in HS mom had on her kitchen wall...

"The hurrier I go,the behinder I get".

Hope this was helpful in anyway.

Last edited by Moxie Pip; Thu Sep 15, 2011 at 10:01 PM..
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 10:42 PM
(#12)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Dale on the "luck" hand here a couple observations if I could and one question.

First observation is that I would push for maybe 4 or 5x betting the original pre-flop raise here.

Question is you were BB and QQ hand was EP the way you have it here but you have him/her leading out with a big bet post flop. So the question is did you check to them for the check raise play? If so I'm not a big advocate of that myself,but know that others see it differently.


Hope this was helpful in anyway.
Great response Moxie. Thank you.

I'll answer the easy one first.

Position DID mean button. Oops.

Now if you can bear with me....I'll read and try and respond to the rest.


Dale
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 10:57 PM
(#13)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post


Dale on the "luck" hand here a couple observations if I could and one question.

Last observation to the hand is that you didn't so much get lucky as the player holding QQ was unlucky to have his Q's run into your A's. He was coolered,doesn't mean you were lucky. Basically from your end it's a super-standard overpair hand holding up.


"The hurrier I go,the behinder I get".

Hope this was helpful in anyway.
Whether the "Luck" is positive me or negative him...Is just splitting hairs there.

No doubt, good for me...bad for him.

And,

Love the final quote!!

Dale
 
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Thu Sep 15, 2011, 11:28 PM
(#14)
dale442's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post

To my way of thinking as long as one is playing away in the micro stakes they can take their time in incorporating new tactics and growing/expanding their tool box beyond mastering a solid ABC TAG game. The reason I say this is that IMO the vast majority of players in the micros are weak enough that keeping to a strict ABC TAG line for the most part is really what you want to be doing. You don't typically have to try and beat a bad player,just wait for them to beat themselves. Trying to get fancy with them usually just gets you in trouble and it's not necessary anyway because they aren't likely to have the type of thought process in their game where using more advanced moves are even necessary anyway. I usually found that in the micros the other good players were likely to be taking very ABC TAG type lines themselves so they would typically become readily identifiable.

So I think a good rule of thumb for a player at the level most of us are on would be to master and really hone the basics of good,consistent TAG play first. Then start to fold in the elements of what will be necessary to grow your game piece by piece. Take a concept/tactic,work on it,analyze the hands in which you utilized it and look for ways that opponents may try to counteract your moves. Get it down to where it's a solid,dependable part of your arsenal. Then add another piece and rinse and repeat. This should help deal with the "system overload" feelings that you seem to be having.

Whenever I get to feeling like I'm trying to take in too much,too fast, I always go back in my mind to a sampler a friend of mine in HS mom had on her kitchen wall...

"The hurrier I go,the behinder I get".

Hope this was helpful in anyway.
I do agree there are far worse things you can do playing this game than "Just" playing ABC.

KISS...."Keep it simple stupid"

I am starting to think that I need to go backwards again before forwards.

I'm lacking right now the #1 thing required....PATIENCE.

Amazing for one who has spent time in the "Burn and fold league' but I'm seeing, at times, this is my biggest issue.
Overplaying hands for instance...lack of patience...

Thanks again Moxie,

Dale
 
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Fri Sep 16, 2011, 03:07 AM
(#15)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Isn't LUCK results orientated ?

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 03:15 AM..
 
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Fri Sep 16, 2011, 03:12 AM
(#16)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
Isn't SKILL results orientated ?

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 03:16 AM..
 
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Fri Sep 16, 2011, 03:23 AM
(#17)
0HighTimes0's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 840
equilibrium of both i think is answer ?
Great post moxie
and all posts that benefit people playing too there best

Last edited by 0HighTimes0; Fri Sep 16, 2011 at 04:06 AM..
 

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