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Should I Not Have Made This Call?

 
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Should I Not Have Made This Call? - Fri Sep 23, 2011, 01:29 PM
(#1)
ILuvPoker77's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Circumstances (actual hand history is below):

Overall I think I played this tournament well. It was a very tight passive table, and I was able to steal a lot, but also didn't get much value out of my big hands because everyone at the table usually folded to a pre-flop raise, even a small one. :P

I didn't do any garbage steals, but did make many pre-flop steals with speculative hands, as well as call/C-bet steals about 1/3 of the time when folded to me in the SB.

As we got shorter-handed (down to 5), I was not able to steal as often because the 2 players to my left finally began defending. I lost a fair number of chips with several attempted steals when I was re-raised all in.

When we were 5-handed, the player immediately to my right finally figured out the table dynamics and started shoving often pre-flop. His stack size was close to mine, so I didn't dare call without something really strong, and his stack kept growing (and mine kept shrinking) because no one was calling his shoves.

Another player busted out and we were on the bubble.

Having just over 10BB and the shortest remaining stack at the table, I was dealt JJ in the BB. The SB chronic shover went all-in and I decided to call. He had Q8o but happened to hit a queen on the flop, and I didn't pick up a jack.

Should I not have called his shove while on the bubble?

PokerStars Game #67938318354: Tournament #445347708, $3.11+$0.39 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2011/09/23 12:51:05 ET
Table '445347708 1' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 2: riverkila (4011 in chips)
Seat 7: ILuvPoker77 (2108 in chips)
Seat 8: Jandro Mura (4561 in chips)
Seat 9: Chainvkci (2820 in chips)
riverkila: posts small blind 100
ILuvPoker77: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ILuvPoker77 [Jc Jh]
Jandro Mura: folds
Chainvkci: folds
riverkila: raises 3811 to 4011 and is all-in
ILuvPoker77: calls 1908 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1903) returned to riverkila
*** FLOP *** [9d 5s Qd]
*** TURN *** [9d 5s Qd] [6s]
*** RIVER *** [9d 5s Qd 6s] [Td]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
riverkila: shows [8c Qh] (a pair of Queens)
ILuvPoker77: shows [Jc Jh] (a pair of Jacks)
riverkila collected 4216 from pot
ILuvPoker77 finished the tournament in 4th place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4216 | Rake 0
Board [9d 5s Qd 6s Td]
Seat 2: riverkila (small blind) showed [8c Qh] and won (4216) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: ILuvPoker77 (big blind) showed [Jc Jh] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: Jandro Mura folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: Chainvkci (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Last edited by ILuvPoker77; Fri Sep 23, 2011 at 01:33 PM..
 
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Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:04 PM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
you have roughly 10 big blinds left, and a big PP, you played it fine, the villian is either trying to steal or an idiot
 
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Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:26 PM
(#3)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
You should be able to plug this situation into an ICM calculator, or a program like SnGWiZ. If he's pushing any two it's a call. If he's pushing top 10% or less it's a fold. Q8 is outside of the top 10% so he's definitely pushing wide enough to call. I thought it was closer but this is a very clear call.

You both played the hand perfectly.

Quote:
As we got shorter-handed (down to 5), I was not able to steal as often because the 2 players to my left finally began defending. I lost a fair number of chips with several attempted steals when I was re-raised all in.
This is a mistake though. Once you get down to about 20 BBs, you need to stop stealing with hands you're not prepared to raise/call with. Chips lost are so valuable. And on such short stacks just plan on getting it all in preflop if your opponents are any good.

Last edited by oriholic; Fri Sep 23, 2011 at 02:33 PM..
 
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Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:32 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Being the lowest stack, I'd call it every single time against a player that was shoving consistantly from the SB. With what they had, you were almost a 3-1 favorite and odds like that are exactly what you want... to double up and get out of being the low stack.

If there was a very short stack that was beneath you, then I might consider folding to get ITM first... but when you're the low stack, I'm going to take my chances.
 
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Fri Sep 23, 2011, 02:46 PM
(#5)
ILuvPoker77's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Thanks, everyone, for your valuable feedback.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
You should be able to plug this situation into an ICM calculator, or a program like SnGWiZ. If he's pushing any two it's a call. If he's pushing top 10% or less it's a fold. Q8 is outside of the top 10% so he's definitely pushing wide enough to call. I thought it was closer but this is a very clear call.

You both played the hand perfectly.
Thanks. I'll look into getting an ICM calculator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
This is a mistake though. Once you get down to about 20 BBs, you need to stop stealing with hands you're not prepared to raise/call with. Chips lost are so valuable. And on such short stacks just plan on getting it all in preflop if your opponents are any good.
I appreciate knowing this. I either should have stopped stealing, or at the very least stopped after the FIRST time I was re-raised all in, not put myself in a position to let it happen 2 more times. (rolls eyes)

Oh well, live and learn; I'm still fairly new at this.
 
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Fri Sep 23, 2011, 03:11 PM
(#6)
king_spadez1's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 230
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILuvPoker77 View Post
As we got shorter-handed (down to 5), I was not able to steal as often because the 2 players to my left finally began defending. I lost a fair number of chips with several attempted steals when I was re-raised all in.

When we were 5-handed, the player immediately to my right finally figured out the table dynamics and started shoving often pre-flop. His stack size was close to mine, so I didn't dare call without something really strong, and his stack kept growing (and mine kept shrinking) because no one was calling his shoves.
Hey ILuvPoker,

Your shove was textbook - The problem began earlier when they adjusted and you didn't. Stealing is one way to chip-up during a game, but you have to tighten up once the blinds start defending. Now instead of chipping-up you're spewing chips.

Secondly, it's very important to maintain a stack of at least 15bb when players are shoving at you constantly. A 15bb stack is a perfect reshoving stack. When your stack starts falling below 25bb it's time to think about table dynamics, and how best to use your chips. You can use them to steal, defend, or you may have a little time to wait for a good spot to make a stand. But if you elect to steal when the dynamics are against you (and lose), you also lose the ability to defend yourself.

Poker is a game of trial and error - practice is the key. Don't be afraid to try new things. Work on your game in the highest level play money arenas. I've seen lots of 3 and 4 star European players tweaking their game there.

PSO has lots of videos to watch, such as 'Commitment Decisions', which would help you with this post - http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...raining-videos

Good luck,
king_spadez1
 
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Fri Sep 23, 2011, 11:30 PM
(#7)
ILuvPoker77's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
Your shove was textbook - The problem began earlier when they adjusted and you didn't. Stealing is one way to chip-up during a game, but you have to tighten up once the blinds start defending. Now instead of chipping-up you're spewing chips.
Exactly. BTW I've avoided that particular error in a few games since.

Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
Secondly, it's very important to maintain a stack of at least 15bb when players are shoving at you constantly. A 15bb stack is a perfect reshoving stack. When your stack starts falling below 25bb it's time to think about table dynamics, and how best to use your chips. You can use them to steal, defend, or you may have a little time to wait for a good spot to make a stand. But if you elect to steal when the dynamics are against you (and lose), you also lose the ability to defend yourself.
A lot to absorb here, and I definitely need to get more training/experience in how to maintain my stack when the blinds are high by methods other than stealing or waiting for a hand that never comes.

I'll try to find and study some new resources on shoving/calling shoves when blinds are high relative to stack sizes. The resources I have all assume you have some minimum "category" of hand to shove or call with from whatever position or stack size. But what do you do if you simply aren't getting any of those? Or what do you do if you have a "shovable" hand, but there have been limps and/or raises before you that indicate stronger hands are in play that could beat you if you shove? Do you fold and wait for another qualifying hand to come (which it very well may not), or do you go ahead and shove anyway?

I'm sure a lot of the answers to those questions are situational, and can only really be learned through time and practice.

I'm sure there is lots of info I haven't seen yet, though, and will look for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by king_spadez1 View Post
PSO has lots of videos to watch, such as 'Commitment Decisions', which would help you with this post - http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...raining-videos

Good luck,
king_spadez1
Thanks -- I've actually watched quite a few of the videos (including Commitment Decisions, although I may need to watch that one again). Part of the reason I started playing real money games was to get VPP so I could view more training sessions. I now have enough VPP to watch any of the videos, which is great -- I can't believe how many wonderful resources are available at PSO!
 

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