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a little insight, if possible ?

 
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a little insight, if possible ? - Sun Sep 25, 2011, 05:22 PM
(#1)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Am I making my bets too small ? and am I giving too much credit to the other players ?

I know I am not a very good player and that I have a great deal to learn, but I could do with some very real help with understanding this hand.

It is not my play that I want analysing, I already know I suck and I am attempting to improve, I would like some input on the play by 'leaderonline'.

Am I so easy to read ? or is this player just hoping for the best ?

I know he is priced in on each street, but doesn't my play indicate that I have a hand that is only afraid of trip 3's ? And wouldn't the correct play by him, be fold ?

PokerStars Game #68003202384: Tournament #434922947, 20FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2011/09/24 18:12:56 ET
Table '434922947 230' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: pleb 1 (1450 in chips)
Seat 2: karl161 (1795 in chips)
Seat 3: Juriy972 (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: Bill Curran (1380 in chips)
Seat 5: X5TEC (1030 in chips)
Seat 6: tatko26 (1335 in chips)
Seat 7: randypbier (2000 in chips)
Seat 8: leaderonline (1730 in chips)
Seat 9: lllaannggee (1310 in chips)
randypbier: posts small blind 15
leaderonline: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Bill Curran [Ac Jc]
lllaannggee: folds
pleb 1: folds
karl161: calls 30
Juriy972: folds
Bill Curran: raises 60 to 90
X5TEC: folds
tatko26: folds
randypbier: calls 75
leaderonline: calls 60
karl161: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [3c 2d 3d]
randypbier: checks
leaderonline: checks
karl161: checks
Bill Curran: bets 90
randypbier: folds
leaderonline: calls 90
karl161: folds
*** TURN *** [3c 2d 3d] [8s]
leaderonline: checks
Bill Curran: bets 180
leaderonline: calls 180
*** RIVER *** [3c 2d 3d 8s] [4s]
leaderonline: checks
Bill Curran: bets 90
leaderonline: calls 90
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Bill Curran: shows [Ac Jc] (a pair of Threes)
leaderonline: shows [Ah 2h] (two pair, Threes and Deuces)
leaderonline collected 1080 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1080 | Rake 0
Board [3c 2d 3d 8s 4s]
Seat 1: pleb 1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: karl161 folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Juriy972 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Bill Curran showed [Ac Jc] and lost with a pair of Threes
Seat 5: X5TEC folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: tatko26 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: randypbier (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: leaderonline (big blind) showed [Ah 2h] and won (1080) with two pair, Threes and Deuces
Seat 9: lllaannggee folded before Flop (didn't bet)



 
Old
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Sun Sep 25, 2011, 05:33 PM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
initial raise is just a wee bit too small, maybe make it 120 with the limpers..flop bet is horrible lol 90 into 360... your giving everyone great odds to call..turn bet 180 into 540 is small still, but as results show he isnt going anywhere...river bet you gave up, and he knew it.

you ran into an A rag never fold idiot who hit a pair... earlier bet sizing may have forced him to go away but I doubt it
 
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Sun Sep 25, 2011, 06:02 PM
(#3)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Bill, IMO your initial raise is fine as it wont make any diff at the 2nd level of an FPP buy in tourney as these guys will call anyway even though you know i advocate 3x raise at this level plus 1 for each limper.
The flop bet is not good as roomik pointed out as well as a smallish turn bet which wreaks of a draw. If you are trying to keep the pot small fine but general rule of thumb is that you will not bet off micro players with a bluff. You have none of it but keep firing!
Take one shot and shut it down.

Gidee Up!

 
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Sun Sep 25, 2011, 08:20 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,788
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
You could raise 1 more BB preflop due to the limper, but at the 2nd level, it probably won't make a difference. On the flop, if you're going to make a continuation bet, it probably should be at least 1/2 pot, probably even 3/4 to pot.
If you raise more on the flop and they call... then they had a low pocket pair or ace/rag that hit... then you know to stop betting on the turn, unless you hit.

By betting less from the flop on, you're pricing in all the draws or low pairs.
 
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Sun Sep 25, 2011, 11:12 PM
(#5)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Preflop is fine, but when it's 4-way to the flop you kind of need to have something. The flop is likely to miss everyone, so anyone with any piece will and should stay around. Betting the flop is fine as you have some equity with two overcards and a backdoor nut flush draw. However when called I think you need to just shut it down. I probably just check behind on the flop, taking the free card, hoping for a JQKA to represent or make top pair, or a club for a nut flush draw. Also your flop bet is way too small and there is no reason for...any hand to fold. 96 might still be live, haha. And then there are floating options, etc. Turn bet is way too small and also pointless. On the river...Are you bluffing or value-betting? No hand that beats you will ever fold for 90 chips in a 900 chip pot. I'm snapping with AQ. Heck I might call with air just to see what you had. Honestly you might be getting wacky thin value from weaker unpaired aces like AT, A9, and total garbage that wants to see, but really, just check behind and hope for like or something or make a real bluff bet, not a river bet that is the same size as your little preflop raise.

Leader played it pretty much the only way he could. Most of your range misses the flop, turn and river. If you want to keep bluffing at it he's got a bluff catcher and an overcard (giving him 5 outs) if he needs to improve.
 
Old
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Mon Sep 26, 2011, 12:01 AM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Bill:

Leaderonline is the type of player who has little or no stack awareness.
He will see possibilities in extremely weak hands, like an A2, that solid palyes would never be willing to run down.
He will tend to convine himself that YOU hold whatever is most favorable to him, and this will lead him to stick around far too often.
He lives within a cloud of "hope", and his default setting is the CALL.

This means your pre flop raise for value with AJs is fine against him; you will tend to be well ahead of his range. After that though, without solid value in your hand, you should be very circumspect about building a pot.

Sure, your hand MIGHT be the best on a 332 2 diamond flop, but with only a 6 out draw to a top pair hand which may or may not be "good", do you REALLY want to be wasting chips on air?

I will grant that your flop bet may have reason, if only for its value as a blocker bet to get you to your overs, but the caller after it went multi-way leaves you in a bit of a trick bag even if you DO spike. At any rate, after that point if you are playing this sort of opponent, you gotta STOP putting value in for him...at least until you hold a made hand.

You really want to stick with betting only stronger semi-bluff shots, and made hands against these types.

Last edited by JDean; Mon Sep 26, 2011 at 12:04 AM..
 
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Mon Sep 26, 2011, 12:18 PM
(#7)
Bill Curran's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,506
Thankyou gentlemen for your replies.

The points you raise are very valid and I knew I had some of these faults.

I am trying to remedy the situation, but I find that whilst I am trying to put reads on opponents I tend to forget the other things I am supposed to do... Must be my age I guess.

I find that when I stick out a bet to try to illicit information about the other players hands, if none is forthcoming I find a mistake I am making, as JD pointed out, is to leak chips trying to get them to give some info back.

I think I am improving, but very very slowly. Thanks once again guys, this has been very helpful.

 
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Mon Sep 26, 2011, 12:29 PM
(#8)
oriholic's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 751
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Curran View Post
I find that when I stick out a bet to try to illicit information
Don't bet for information. Bet for value or as a bluff. (or to capitalize on dead money which is kind of a combination). If you get information out of your value bet or your bluff bet, cool, but that should usually just be a side effect of a bet, not the purpose.
 
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Mon Sep 26, 2011, 01:23 PM
(#9)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
Quote:
Originally Posted by oriholic View Post
Don't bet for information. Bet for value or as a bluff. (or to capitalize on dead money which is kind of a combination). If you get information out of your value bet or your bluff bet, cool, but that should usually just be a side effect of a bet, not the purpose.
+1
 
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Mon Sep 26, 2011, 02:42 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,479
(Head Trainer)
+1

Honestly I'd have played post flop the same way he did. Weak bets usually mean weak hands, the line you took looks exactly like ace high, so for the small bets I'd call you down too. I agree with others, just shut it down post. If you're going to c-bet cause it's such a tough board for them to hit, then c-bet 1/2 to 2/3rds of the pot, make a real bet like you'd do with QQ or something. Then just shut it down if you get called, take the free card on the turn and hope the river checks down.
 
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Mon Sep 26, 2011, 03:42 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
+1

Honestly I'd have played post flop the same way he did. Weak bets usually mean weak hands, the line you took looks exactly like ace high, so for the small bets I'd call you down too. I agree with others, just shut it down post. If you're going to c-bet cause it's such a tough board for them to hit, then c-bet 1/2 to 2/3rds of the pot, make a real bet like you'd do with QQ or something. Then just shut it down if you get called, take the free card on the turn and hope the river checks down.
Yes. I agree with Dave re: playing it like he did; your bet sizing would lead me to believe my 2 hit might be good too.

That is why if you want to get CALLED, you bet more along the line of you did, but if you want a FOLD you have to bet more standard amounts.

It is about deciding up front what you want to represent in your hand.

Betting for "info" is a concept which can work decently in LIMIT poker, but even in that game you rarely want to put money in for information without a made hand. Example:

You hold K9 in the BB, and flop comes K 3 7.

You check flop, and then call a bet by an MP player who C-bets far too often.

Turn comes A.

A bet THEN, for information, may not be so bad because it will tend to tell you (if called) whether your K/weak was in fact good, and/or whether villain was betting overs that he has now hit.

In NL, you may want to bet for info on a Q J 3 board with your hand, when you are oop (a donk bet).

If you get called, you can know versus loose players you are quite likely to need improvement to win, so you would not want to put a ton of chips in the pot.

The key thing is, you have SOME VALUE in your hand for which you require "definition". You lack that sort of value in this hand, therefore you are merely semi-bluffing oop.

As Dave states, you would want to "sell" a semi-bluff more strongly if you believe your opponents CAN fold, but if you are un-willing to (due to the weakness of your semi bluff outs) to do that, you are probably better off check/folding.
 

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