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Trapped by QQ

 
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Trapped by QQ - Fri Sep 30, 2011, 02:04 AM
(#1)
DirTBoy666's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 1
BronzeStar
It was early in the open skill league. Was there anything wrong in my way of betting throughout the hand? Or could I have played it differently?


Last edited by DirTBoy666; Fri Sep 30, 2011 at 02:13 AM..
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 03:06 AM
(#2)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
Preflop I think your play is fine, if your going to play AT this is a good spot, first in from LP and you entered for a raise. I like that so far but something to think about is since this is the open league and the general dynamic of this league is loose/passive calling station type players you may want to think about passing a hand like AT. Your likely to get called by multiple players (as is the case in this example) which makes it very difficult to play well postflop.

On the flop you hit about as good as you can, TP decent kicker, and it's checked to you. This is where I think you made a mistake, the pot contained 500 chips, and you bet only 160, giving anyone with a straight or flush draw 4.1:1 odds to call, mathematically any draw has the right price to stick around. If I was in your spot I probably would have bet twice as much to 320, which would have given 2.5:1 odds to your opponents inviting them to make a mathematically incorrect call. Same goes for the turn, you bet 240 into and 820 chip pot, much to small, laying your opponents 4.5:1 with a hand strength that is vulnerable. I suggest you read this,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pot_odds

On the River I would just check back and hope your hand is best, there is not a lot that can call, A9, A8, A4, A3, A2 is about all you can get called by that you beat, you can include some 7's like 87 or 97 but it's unlikely they are still in the hand at this point or would call a bet here. If villain had a missed flush draw he shouldn't be calling so I would just check back.

Last edited by PaidInFull6; Fri Sep 30, 2011 at 06:34 AM..
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 10:01 AM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,819
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Playing A 10 by opening from late position is ok... but... if the table has multiple calling stations, I'd actually consider passing. I wouldn't want to take too big of a chance in getting a big negative point total if I'm outkicked by someone and it doesn't play as good with multiple people in the pot. The rewards for winning the hand are probably not going to be worth the risk of the big negative point finish if you lose.

If I did play it, I do like your raise preflop, becuase I'd definitely raise if I played it.
On the flop, you need to be betting more, especially with that many in the pot. Yes, you have top pair and a decent kicker, so you need to bet enough that you price out all the draws (especially the flush draw as there are 2 diamonds on the board, if they have diamonds, they have 9 outs... so you need to price out a 36% hand). I'd have bet about 3/4 pot or 350.
On the turn, I'd have bet about 1/2 pot... if they raised, I wouldn't necessarily put them on QQ, but I'd be thinking they hit 2 pair with AQ.
Due to thier raise on the turn, I'd be checking down the river because the river card didn't help me and I can't beat 2 pair, if they hit 2 pair on the turn.
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 02:05 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
I agree. Also agree on checking down the river, but as played if you do go for thin value the river is a really easy fold to the check-raise. You're never good here.
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 02:42 PM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Pre-Flop:

Your raise, and its size is fine IF you are going to play ATo in the hihg-jack chair.
Since the open league tends to be a wild and wooly affair, and since it is a very flat pay structure type event (due to league points), ATo is probably a hand you do NOT "need" to play here. I think I would have prefered to pass on this one, simply beause the risk of this hand costing me chips is great, and the poor play (in general) of opponents leaves me plenty of time to find BETTER spots.

But if you ARE going to play this hand, your actions are proper.

Flop:

Top pair/marginal kicker is a decent enough hand to lead out on, especially with a check in front of you. However, your bet is too SMALL.
Consider...

This went 4 way to the flop.
In multi-way pots, when there are the potential for draws being on board, you are better served in "thinning the field" if you think you hold the best hand NOW.
If you fail to do this, you run the risk that any single opponent who makes a "mistake" in calling your bet with a lesser hand than yours will then create the pot odds for anyone ELSE with an 8 or 9 out draw to call as well.
Example:

Pot = 500.
BB checks.
You lead 160 into the 500 chip pot.
You are now laying 4.125 to 1 for the FIRST villain to call you.
Since this is NL, the 1st villain would actually need approximately 4.5 to 1 odds to make it "correct" for him to try peeling an 8 or 9 out draw against you, BUT...
If he holds something like A3 and CALLS, the pot is now 660 + 160 = 820.
this first villain has made a "mistake", but...
Any LATER acting villain with an 8 or 9 out draw now IS getting "correct pot odds" to peel a card in hopes of spiking.

This is a special "hole" in the fundemental theorem of poker, applicable to multi-way pots only, where the FIRST "mistake" by an opponent can then lead to LATER opponents making a +eV call...you want to AVOID doing that in order to maximize your chances of winning this pot. To avoid that, you really must bet MORE that merely denial odds for 1 player...something around 1/2 to 2/3rds pot at least would be appropriate.

Fact is, as the results show, this special circumstance did NOT lead to your "down fall" in the hand per se; your bet was plenty to deny odds to the 2 outer you were actually facing. That does not mean your actions were the BEST thing you could have done. Your decisions, and how valid they are is what matters, not the results. Your bet sizing decision here was "off".

Turn:

The Q does not figure to have filled any draws, but the fact the single BB villain called your flop bet should give you pause.
Your hand is top pair/T kicker, and there may be a chance you are beaten now.
You must use your reads to determine if you think you ARE beat. If you still believe you are ahead though, you should bet, but how much?

The pot is 1140 after the lone villain called your flop bet.
You lead 280 into that behind his check.

1140 / 280 = 4.071 to 1 odds.

If the villain is on a flush draw, you have NOT denied him the 4 to 1 odds he needs to draw at that flush with just 1 to come.
This means you did not bet ENOUGH to cause the villain to make a "mistake" if he is drawing.

If you are "worried" you are behind, and that is what caused your small bet, then you've lost track of stack sizes, and failed to recognize that a CALL brings your villain up to approximately 40% invested in the pot with a call, and well past a "committment point".

At this point you need to either bet MORE, around half pot at least (if you think you are ahead), or bet NOTHING to control the pot size, and possibly induce a bluff if a draw busts on the river.

River:

After being called twice, and seieng the opponent go well past a committment point, when he checks to you again, there is no WAY you can bet your AT for value here.
All betting will do now is cause a WEAKER hand to fold (specifically a busted draw), or see a shove over any bet by a better hand.
You've gotten all the value you could have IF you are good, and the only thing a 3 river "bullet" is likely to net you is a bigger loss or a fold.
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 04:42 PM
(#6)
ILuvPoker77's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Thanks to the OP for posting this hand, and to the trainers for taking the time to provide in-depth feedback. I have been in many similar situations (well, I'm sure we all have), but the points made were very helpful to me, particularly regarding bet sizing in multi-way pots and the reasons not to bet on the river or to call the check-raise.
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 06:31 PM
(#7)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
JD could you possibly explain why someone with two diamonds needs odds of 4 to 1 or better to make his call viable for the draw?

I am a bit slow on the take up

TC
 
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Fri Sep 30, 2011, 11:33 PM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
JD could you possibly explain why someone with two diamonds needs odds of 4 to 1 or better to make his call viable for the draw?

I am a bit slow on the take up

TC
It's based on our chance to complete the flush with 1 card to come. There are 6 known cards (4 on the board and 2 in the hand) and 46 unseen. If you have a flush draw then 9 cards complete your flush, so out of the 46 unseen cards 9 of them are good for you and 37 of them are not, so your odds against making the flush on the river are 37-9 or 4.1-1 against.
 

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