Home / Community / Forum / Poker Community / Live Game Sweats and Online Tournaments / Skill League /

Requred VPPs - Sign if you Agree

Old
Lightbulb
Requred VPPs - Sign if you Agree - Fri Sep 30, 2011, 12:13 PM
(#1)
Jcrondps's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 147
Hello,

I would like to put out the suggestion that players be allowed to upgrade their VPP status for leaderboard prizes in a given month rather than being tied to the previous month's level. Everything else follows this rule. VIP level for players on PokerStars, content access on the PSO site, etc.

Alternatively, people should be given the option to Opt out of the Premier League to participate in the Open League. The difference between the prizes for 20VPPs vs 150VPPs in the Premier League vs 20VPPs in the Open League is substantial. It seems more feasible to compete in the Open League if a player only has 20VPPs. It would be sick to top the Premier League leaderboard at 20VPPs at a $4500 difference.

I understand that the purpose is to motivate people to earn more VPPs in a given month but if a player has an off-month where he/she can't play very much, that essentially cripples them for 2 months.

Thanks
 
Old
Default
Fri Sep 30, 2011, 03:46 PM
(#2)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Good luck. Nothing wrong with a wish list
 
Old
Default
Fri Sep 30, 2011, 04:00 PM
(#3)
Cairn Destop's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,477
BronzeStar
Your suggestions are valid, but look at it from their viewpoint.

If the VPPS can be earned during the month, there is a lot of computer resources tied into following the players every month to determine if they have sufficient points. By setting the criteria in the previous month, it offers a finite time frame. There might be last minute SNAFUs, but those are few, and can be handled individually.

It also prevents players from competing in a league, then trying to earn the necessary points in the final days. Consider these scenarioes.

Player A is in the Premier league, he is sucking sewer water due to a lot of deadly rivers, he has zero VPPS, the month has five days remaining. Can you see any reason why Player A should earn even one VPPS?

Player B is in the Premier league, he is at the top of the leaderboard, he has zero VPPS, the month has five days remaining. Can you see Player B earning his VPPS during those last five days?

Player C is in the open league and doing well, he has zero VPPS, the month has five days remaining, and he wants to play in the premier league. Can you see Player C earning at least the minimum VPPS?




I'm all in favor of the opt-out option, but I'm thinking it should be exercised at the beginning of the month. This would allow more players who want to advance to the premier league that option since the player's status as a top five hundred can be ignored. I'm also wondering if this could be made either as a permanent deal or a long-term option. Players who select that option would then have to use the premier qualifier league to advance.

If enough players take it, the site might adjust the prize structure. Then again, the site can argue, and with justification, that the higher prize for the 20+ players in the open league is warranted since players are competing with more than ten thousand people, while the premier league is just fifteen hundred. Simple math. The larger the field, the greater the payout.



As to encouraging players to earn VPPS, that is the nature of the business. No doubt the site must have sufficient players earning the higher level to cover the expenses. Perhaps the loss of the American contingent sufficiently hurt the bottom line that the school had to decide between cancelling the program, or devising a system that encouraged a higher level of participation.

I'm reminded of another member's comments regarding VPPS. Though I'm paraphrasing his comment, it went something like this: If you spent more than a penny earning those 150 VPPS, then you shouldn't be playing poker.
 
Old
Default
Fri Sep 30, 2011, 04:06 PM
(#4)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
But where do we sign if we do not agree?

I have previously opposed any opt out from the premier league. Just get into it for a month or two and you will soon see why, no sane person wants to go back to the open league.

The VPP levels just need some adjustment to. If you are really a premier league standard player and play regular poker at PS for cash then 150VPPs is no problem.

If you are mainly a very part-time occassional player, or just a freeroller, even if you are a good standard player then I am sorry, you are not contributing to the table rakes that provide the prizes that we get at PSO for FREE play. If you can't manage to average 5VPPs per day, for at least break even or a small profit, then you really are expecting to get something for nothing, freerolling the PSO Premier tourneys for a shot at big prizes.

It is what it is, a great opportunity but which requires some cash/time commitment.

Raise the VPP level requirement in the Open League to 75 VPPs and discourage the freeloaders - now you are talking sense....

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Fri Sep 30, 2011, 07:11 PM
(#5)
Jcrondps's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 147
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
But where do we sign if we do not agree?
If you are mainly a very part-time occassional player, or just a freeroller, even if you are a good standard player then I am sorry, you are not contributing to the table rakes that provide the prizes that we get at PSO for FREE play.

If you can't manage to average 5VPPs per day, for at least break even or a small profit, then you really are expecting to get something for nothing, freerolling the PSO Premier tourneys for a shot at big prizes.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
The people earning 0 VPPs are not contributing at all. I understand the need to earn the VPPs and I don't disagree. My issue is that the 20VPP open league participant has more to gain than the 20VPP Premier League participant despite qualifying for a higher tier league and contributing the same amount to the rake. Someone can argue that there are more players in the Open League but once you qualify for the Premier League, you don't have a choice to play the larger field for the higher payout so the argument is moot. It's like the 20VPP player is being penalized for doing well.

Also, 5VPPs requires ~10 x $1.10 tourneys per day to achieve. Depending on a player's game preference and ability to multi table this can be a relatively substantial time commitment. I'd say a minimum of 3 hours per day for regular speed sit-n-gos and more if the player can't run at least 4 tables at a time. The higher your bankroll, the easier it becomes but you still need to get there.

This post is an attempt to have the payout structure balanced between leagues OR to provide players with an opt out. It is not a whine about earning 150VPPs. I'm all for reward for contribution and the 150VPP players should (and do) get more for a reward. It's the discrepancy in the payout despite equal contribution (20VPP) between leagues that bothers me.

To bring things in to perspective, consider the VIP program. PokerStars does not provide different opportunities to certain Silver Star VIPs. They all earned between 750 and 3000 VPPs and, as such have access to the same rewards. However, the 20VPP players at PSO are penalized by qualifying for the Premier League.

I should add that I like the idea of multiple leagues, particularly the Premier League.

Last edited by Jcrondps; Fri Sep 30, 2011 at 07:26 PM.. Reason: Addition
 
Old
Default
Fri Sep 30, 2011, 09:08 PM
(#6)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I think you raise a valid point re the discrepancy on earning 20 VPP for the Open League and Premier League and the consequent lack of prize money potential.

However, I think the VIP program is always based on your previous month's results, so if you achieve 750VPP for September, you are a silver star in October.

If, in terms of video content on PSO, you only qualify for premium videos based on your current month's results and not the VPP's you have accrued in the previous month, then I for one will be pretty miffed. I went to a lot of trouble to earn 150VPPs in September and I expected that I would be able to access all video content in October to help improve my game; if league qualification and VIP status is based on your performance in the previous month, I cannot see why access to premium content should be based on the existing month. If I cannot access all content in October I will have some serious questions to ask.

TC
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 01, 2011, 07:47 AM
(#7)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
QUOTE
the 20VPP open league participant has more to gain than the 20VPP Premier League participant despite qualifying for a higher tier league and contributing the same amount to the rake.

This is valid point but I am not convinced that an opt out is a good way to address it. The opt out would need to be decided early during each month so that the system would know in advance not to promote those players if they technically qualified at the end of the month, given that the Open League rolls straight over to the new month without the 2 day break that the Premier League gets. Then there would be the need to replace those who opt out with players lower down. It just seems too complicated. Perhaps an alternative would be only to promote people with 150+VPPs to the premier league, so that they are all qualified to get the higher prizes.

QUOTE
...5VPPs requires ~10 x $1.10 tourneys per day to achieve. Depending on a player's game preference and ability to multi table this can be a relatively substantial time commitment. I'd say a minimum of 3 hours per day for regular speed sit-n-gos and more if the player can't run at least 4 tables at a time. The higher your bankroll, the easier it becomes but you still need to get there.


Again this is partly true, and I think 150 is a big jump from 20, but I don't think it is excessive. Each time you are in a PSO tournament you are likely to be at the table from 1.5-4 hours at a time and I will usually be running 1 or 2 side games, probably 2 $0.50 sitngo or 2 $0.01/$0.02 NLHE or PL Omaha8 cash tables so a lot of my VPPs are earnt concurrently whilst I am in the PSO tournaments. If you are in PSO Open league games going for top spots then as we all know you probably are in 2 tourneys a day minimum. I think if you are a reasonable player, breaking even or winning at the low stakes then 5VPPs per day are not a problem. Most regular premier league players will also be grinding for profit more regularly and aspiring to move up the stakes as they do so, where the VPPs will come much quicker.


I am interested if anyone has any alternative ideas to address the apparent anomaly for 20VPP+players.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Sat Oct 01, 2011, 12:09 PM
(#8)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
The opt out would need to be decided early during each month so that the system would know in advance not to promote those players if they technically qualified at the end of the month, given that the Open League rolls straight over to the new month without the 2 day break that the Premier League gets.

Eh?
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 05:58 AM
(#9)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
QUOTE

The opt out would need to be decided early during each month so that the system would know in advance not to promote those players if they technically qualified at the end of the month, given that the Open League rolls straight over to the new month without the 2 day break that the Premier League gets. Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
As always Darkman picks up when I am talking tosh. This was a mistake, I believed it when I wrote it but 20 minutes later realised I was mistaken. Both Open and Premier take the 2 day break, only the qualifiers roll on.

Still think my point stands. If 1500 are invited to the premier but an unknown quantity want to reject that and move back to the open it has to cause an extra headache for admin.

Be interesting to see how Thanat0s666 feels now he has secured his $500 4th spot in the Open and will be forced to play in "the worst system of the history"
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 01:58 PM
(#10)
puppyeyes08's Avatar
Since: Dec 2009
Posts: 59
This is what I was on about the other day , making decision to play premier League or stay in Open league . I would win more in Open League with my 50VPP's.
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 04:08 PM
(#11)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
Be interesting to see how Thanat0s666 feels now he has secured his $500 4th spot in the Open and will be forced to play in "the worst system of the history"
I suspect that just like me, he'll be happy with what he collected and now spend this month concentrating on other more profitable games. Don't expect to see either of us active in the league again until November.

As I've said before. Each league will appeal to people for different reasons. I consider the Open League to be a good venue for making a monthly bonus with minimal effort other than registering for a sufficient number of games. I see the Premier League in it's current format as a place where people can dream of hitting it big for no financial outlay. I understand why people like the latter. But for me (and others) this "dream" is easily passed over in favour of making an almost guaranteed but smaller score.

My attitude to this probably explains why I rarely play big MTT's nowadays but instead concentrate on SNG's. A lottery win is always going to be nice. But you can't go without your wages whilst waiting for it
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 04:48 PM
(#12)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I am sure Thant0s666 is very happy with last months outcome and congratulations to him. I hope he and others from the top end of the Open League do continue to play in PSO this month and compete well in the Premier League too, maybe giving it a go will change his mindset.

I still think if someone is planning to miss whole months in PSO (whenever they get promoted) for then bi-monthly 'guaranteed' smaller prizes in the Open League it is a -EV decision irrespective of your other playing preferences.

No doubt I will crash and burn in the Premier at some point soon, inevitable I suppose with such a small tightly contested group when a downswing comes my way. So I fully expect to have to return to grind the Open League. I agree in some ways it is easier to get good guaranteed +ve points there, but never easy to get those very top spots. Even with only the 20+VPPs I think I would rather play the sane 40+ games in the Premier League for the lowest potential prize of $2 than grind 100+ all month at the Open, probably miss out on the top 20 spots and still only get $10 or less.

But as you say - horses for courses. I don't mind if people want to do that if it suits them. I'm still searching for some alternative solution to what seems to be a dilemma for people with just over the 20+VPPs. Not really sure why, probably just the sort of technical problem that interests me even though it doesn't affect me directly.

Good luck in all your games - wherever they may be

Ed from edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 04:52 PM
(#13)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I think Darkman has brought up a very interesting point here:

Finishing in the top 500 in the Open League takes virtually no skill, burn the clock, fold and play your premium cards and you are almost guaranteed a place in the top 500. With luck on your side you may finish in the top 50, and you need not play poker at all.

How many tournaments have the top 50 participating in the Open League won? I would wager very few because it is all about volume and not poker ability.

That is the reason that many will not participate in the Premier League even though they have qualified to play there: they are unwilling to play for four or five hours to make positive points, either because the time factor is too demanding or that they are unable to adjust their game to do so.

Personally , I want to improve my poker. I could meander round the Open League, play some ring games, play some SnGs, a few tournies here and there and maintain a bankroll. Great!!! I would not be improving my poker one iota! Nor would I be improving my chances of really growing a bankroll. What is the point of just paddling in the lake where I can make a little money but never have the balls to leave the lake and make some more????

So I admire someone like Edinfreeman! He wants to grow and improve his game, he wants to move up and move forward.

The mercenary players who have qualified for the Premier League in October and who played over 100 tournies in the open league in September and now refuse to play in the Premier League, well all I can say is shame on you and you will never get better that what you are:::::!!!!!

TC
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 05:03 PM
(#14)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
I admire someone like Edinfreeman! He wants to grow and improve his game, he wants to move up and move forward.

Well thanks Top, but mainly I just want to stay indoors and enjoy my poker, keep my brain active before the senility kicks in and they put me in a home with only dribbling at daytime TV for a hobby.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 05:07 PM
(#15)
topthecat's Avatar
Since: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,962
I thought you dribbled already

TC
 
Old
Default
Sun Oct 02, 2011, 11:15 PM
(#16)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by topthecat View Post
The mercenary players who have qualified for the Premier League in October and who played over 100 tournies in the open league in September and now refuse to play in the Premier League, well all I can say is shame on you and you will never get better that what you are:::::!!!!!

TC
Silly me. I hadn't realised that playing in a freeroll league was the only way in which I was going to polish my game. Maybe I'll have to review my decision
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com