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New found aggression

 
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New found aggression - Sun Oct 02, 2011, 03:19 PM
(#1)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Hello ,

This is a short stack play I became informed of recently & decided to implement it during my own tournament play .







I would appreciate your thoughts on playing a dozen blinds in such situations . My decision was made preflop to raise , perhaps get a caller or 2 and put the rest of my stack in post flop regardless - to see such a play succeed is rewarding .

Your insight regarding do's & dont's on this matter will be appreciated as always .

Thankyou .

Last edited by JARGON1977; Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 03:31 PM..
 
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Sun Oct 02, 2011, 05:49 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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A lot of your decisions in this spot will be determined by your table, and the observed tendencies. Consider these factors:

Your stack size, 13BB, does not really LIKE raising a standard amount and then FOLDING.
Can you do it?
Yes (barely!), but folding off nearly 25% of your chips with a strong, but not top tier hand, on a lot of possible flops is not ideal. On most dynamics you are probably better served by going all in immediately, thus exercising full fold equity (or limping to take the flop, and see if it "fits" enough to allow you to stand).

If, however, your table is pretty tight and disciplined, your raise to 900 is more "acceptable".
This is true since on tight tables, a raise to 900 will win you the blinds almost as often as an all-in, only with LESS chance of being called by a dominating hand; plus on tight tables an open jam is only likely to be called by BETTER hands or solid races (like JJ/TT) to your AQs. It CAN be better to solider on with 10BB (should you raise 3BB, miss the flop, then are forced to check/fold) rather than losing all immediately, but if the table is loose enough that small pp and lesser 2 broadway holdings are quite apt to call...a pre-flop shove is far better.

Per your words, what you are exercising is a "stop and go" play.

This sort of play is fine as long as YOUR image is extremely tight, but the problem with it is that this play also tends to "polarize" your range.

"Polarization" of your range happens when your actions are such that you have either a very STRONG made hand (such as an AA/KK over pair on an all small flop) or a weak one (AK on an all small flop versus a pre-flop caller who holds a minor over pair).

In polarized situations, your opponents are quite apt to CALL more often with weaker type hands such as 99 on a 6 high flop, or AT on an A high flop (based on your past tendencies)...since you will not have a made hand with your AQ all that often on the flop, this tendency may not be good for you. Again, the validity of a stop and go play lies largely within the table's ability to note your past tendencies, and also within their own discipline.

Of note: A stop and go play should ONLY be contemplated with less than a "premium" hand (KK/QQ/AA/JJ etc) if your stack size AFTER making a standard raise does not lay excessive pot odds for a call of your flop shove.

In this spot, your stack will contain 10BB after your raise. Since you were called only by the Big Blind, that size represents right around a pot size bet (I did not note exact pot size and stack size before starting this, so do not know the EXACT number). That is a pretty good size to launch a stop and go shove.

1) It lays a max of 2 to 1 to call.

This is a bare MINIMUM needed for someone with an oesd to feel they have correct odds to draw when they know they get to see both the turn and the river. Disciplined players may not feel this bare min is "enough" to risk doubling you, as well as depleting their own stacks if they miss. Since you;d be all in, they have no chance of winning MORE against you.

2) This bet size in relation to the pot size is not so LARGE it represents a "dis-connect".

By this I mean you are not jamming a pot bet in. A bet that large, even though it may be "reasonable" since betting even HALF pot would "commit" you, is more apt to be viewed as a desprete attempt to pick up the pot.

So my thoughts all boil down to this:

If your table is disciplined enough to make most all the CALL ranges you are facing with an oop raise fair well versus your AQs (say only AJs+/99+ will call), the fact you must run your raise through the ENTIRE table means you are probably slightly better served raising as you did rather than open jamming. Versus a wider call range, and open shove is probably better.

If your stack size were LESS (say 8 to 10BB pre-raise, and 5 to 7BB after a 3x raise), an open jam would be better.

If your stack were LARGER, but still small enough to not really "like" playing a standard line through out the hand (say 15 to 17 or 18BB), an open jam is probably better than a stop and go, simply because your follow up bet on a "missed flop" may be called too often to make the stop and go good.

This strikes me as a bit convoluted...I hope it came out clearly, but if not, feel free to ask for clarifications.
 
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Sun Oct 02, 2011, 05:57 PM
(#3)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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another point re the stop and go play...

To OP:

What do you do with your hand if you MISS the flop, it comes 7 high, and the villain donk bets into you for like half pot?

In that spot, your 10BB stack if facing about a 7BB + 3.5BB pot, and you have just a 6 out draw.
A jam by you would make the pot = 20.5BB, into which the villain must call just about 6.5BB...

That is a major reason why you really want to consider open shoving with a hand like AQs/AJs etc if your image is not pretty tight, rather than morph'ing them into stop and go hands. The pp that ARE more likely to be over pairs are your better options for the stop and go versus aggressive and aware opponents who may be able to identify your chance of make the SNG play, and exploit a LOOSE image (if that is what you have).
 
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Sun Oct 02, 2011, 06:16 PM
(#4)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Hello JDean ,

Glad to receive your input , my table image is TAG (I play about 10-15% of hands at the most) however , My level is micro therefore , I wonder whether the table is as aware as you require a table to be to execute the 'stop & go' equitably .

Your thoughts about the table dynamic is something I did not consider , and will now question how loose or tight the table is playing as to whether I shove or 'stop & go' the 12-13BB stack with such a holding (AQs) .

Question : If I have been witnessed making short stack shoves with pocket 99's & or taking the blinds with such aggressive action uncontested - would that affect whether the villains choose to call our 'stop & go' play ?

I mention this as I once went all in twice in a row with AQos & AJos with a short stack and then bottled pocket 55's in the next hand (even though still short stacked) reasoning fold equity may have dissipated . But , today a similar thing the other way round - 2 shoves with small pairs when short stacked only to be dealt pocket AA's in the subsequent hand , receiving alot of action from the table when pushing again .

Interesting , such initiatives become more sophisticated the more they are required .

Thankyou .

Last edited by JARGON1977; Sun Oct 02, 2011 at 06:21 PM..
 
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Mon Oct 03, 2011, 01:14 AM
(#5)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
Your thoughts about the table dynamic is something I did not consider , and will now question how loose or tight the table is playing as to whether I shove or 'stop & go' the 12-13BB stack with such a holding (AQs) .
Keep in mind what you are trying to rep with a stop and go...

When you raise an amount that is a large % of your stack as you did here, but do NOT go all-in, you are essentially signalling to the table that you have a hand so strong that you are willing to put the rest in no matter what comes. That is the "trouble" with making the SNG on a hand like AQ; that hand really does not fit that description...

To make any sort of "bluff", you must have a reasonable expectation that your opponents will be willing to FOLD to your bluff. A lot of micro tables simply will not have players who will "believe" what you are trying to rep (an over pair if you miss), and they will CALL with a wide range of pairs (regardless of kicker strength), because they can easily convince themselves that you have what does NOT fit that board....

If it is all small, you "must" have raised with AK if their T9o has paired.
It it is A high, and they have A4s, you "must" have JJ/QQ, not a bigger A.
They convince themselves of this because of the polarizing nature of your flop jam, See?

This means in a lot of cases you will essentially be making a 6 out "semi bluff" on any flop that does NOT connect to your AQ.

Semi bluffs are more common (and more +eV versus wider call ranges) when made with a greater chance of a "hit" resulting in a winning hand. If you turn AQs into a 6 out semi bluff on the flop, not only are you drawing to 6 outs with only 2 cards to come, but you are also drawing to a 1 pair hand. Un-like a semi bluff made with a oesd or a flush draw, there will be a lot of times someone with enough value to CALL your SNG jam after checking will not be beaten by a single made pair...see?

If the player is LOOSE ENOUGH to call your 25% stack raise pre with a lesser hand than AQ, if they miss too they will likely fold to your jam...that ain't good for you if your AQ is still ahead right?

Also if they are loose enough to call your near committing raise pre, they are unlikely to fold a lot of pair hits BECAUSE YOU ARE POLARIZED. The donk will probably not know what the heck polarized means, but he will be a bad enough player (perhaps) to convince himself that if you had a good hand you would not now jam in all your chips.

That sort of player, if you witness a "poor" skill set in play, and one which may lead them to check/call a 2nd pair hand (you need to be looking for this earlier, long before you are in the 13BB spot), then you are probably better off "standing" straight off the bat with AQs...see?

This sort of thought train, and info gathering, is CRITICAL for your later decisions. If you lack that sort of info, you are forced to "fall back" on a set of "rote" plays. It is far better to have solid REASONS for everything you do at the poker table, and not rely on "stock" plays (like always check a flopped set, or slow play AA on the flop in a heads up situation).

See?





Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
Question : If I have been witnessed making short stack shoves with pocket 99's & or taking the blinds with such aggressive action uncontested - would that affect whether the villains choose to call our 'stop & go' play ?

I mention this as I once went all in twice in a row with AQos & AJos with a short stack and then bottled pocket 55's in the next hand (even though still short stacked) reasoning fold equity may have dissipated . But , today a similar thing the other way round - 2 shoves with small pairs when short stacked only to be dealt pocket AA's in the subsequent hand , receiving alot of action from the table when pushing again .

Interesting , such initiatives become more sophisticated the more they are required .

Thankyou .
Ssssssssss...again, the answer is "it depends".

The possibilities are as wide and varied as the thought patterns of each individual poker player.

Go read the General forum post put up by Yahooza1 (link here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...ething-for-all ). When he asked me for general poker "advice", I responded with general thoughts.

One of the thoughts in the pm I sent him (which he posted) was:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
2) Poker is a game of incomplete information. The more information you can draw on and use to form your decision(s), the better chance there is that your decision will be a good one for you. (distilled form many sources)

Start hand charts, and pot odds are very good things to learn and know, but when you play PL/NL games those things can sometimes go out the window completely when you are faced with a very large, or very troubling bet. There are a myriad of OTHER factors which might hold the potential for you to win a given hand, or avoid losing one.

The better you are able to "see" other informational bits beyond the purely mechanical ones, the better able you are to make your decision the best it could possibly be.
Instead of me giving you an exhaustive "list" of things which may weigh into your decision to try a stop n go versus "weak" players, I challenge YOU to think HARD about the sorts of info you MIGHT see, and process, to use when faced with that decision.

Post a list of at least 5 things BEYOND card value and pot odds you may want to note and consider before trying a SNG play. I think I've addressed both pot odds and card value quite a bit here...they are improtant factors, but not necessarily the only ones at work when considering a SNG play.

After you have YOUR list, and have given an explaination of why you think each is an important factor to weigh, I will respond to that...ok?

Maybe it isn't an "easy" answer for you, but then in all honesty, is anything "easy" really worth a whole lot? If you are willing to invest the skull swet to THINK about other factors which may weigh itno whether a SNG play is good in this spot, then the effort you put in will probably make the thoughts stick with you longer, and more effectively, than just me feeding you info...

I anxiously await your reply...

:-)
 
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'Stop & Go' - Mon Oct 03, 2011, 06:12 AM
(#6)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Factor 1 : Table position .

If raising from UTG , oponents are going to read that as great hand strength and only get involved with hands that might beat AQs or connect with a KJ9 board , therefore leaving me little equity .

Factor 2 : Table image .

If perceived as a tight player (I play 9 - 12% of hands , approximately) then a 3x raise again may court only hands that can beat AQs or connect with the KJ9 board , leaving me little equity .

Factor 3 : Stack sizes .

The size of my 12BB stack prior to the 'SNG' play is one that cannot afford to fold after a standard preflop raise therefore , opponents will know they are playing for my effective stack before they even decide to enter their hand .

Factor 4 : Table dynamic .

Is the table folding to shoves ? But , calling raises seeing a flop to then re-evaluate . If so , a shove may chip up preflop uncontested whereas , a SNG may build a nice pot preflop but risk being eliminated should AQs not connect .

Factor 5 : Tournament situation .

A standard raise may court far more interest - even on the bubble , than a preflop shove would . Again giving opponents a chance to beat a hand that may have simply taken the blinds uncontested with maximum aggression , at such a critical stage in the tournament .


Looking forward to learning more (your advice regarding 'the stickies' I shall take on board .
 
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Mon Oct 03, 2011, 10:47 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
Factor 1 : Table position .

If raising from UTG , oponents are going to read that as great hand strength and only get involved with hands that might beat AQs or connect with a KJ9 board , therefore leaving me little equity .
This definately would play into the equation.

Raising a near committing amount in EP may well see multiple callers, thus drying up your "pressure" from a flop jam, as well as leaving you more vulnerable to calls if you do not have a made hand.

Raising in LP may be more likely perceived as a bluff if you flop shove.

Again, you;d want to know other things too, but these considerations, and being aware of them might well weigh into a decision one way or the other...
 
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Mon Oct 03, 2011, 10:55 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post

Factor 2 : Table image .

If perceived as a tight player (I play 9 - 12% of hands , approximately) then a 3x raise again may court only hands that can beat AQs or connect with the KJ9 board , leaving me little equity .
this also plays into it a lot...

A TIGHT image may result in a SNG type play being "value owning"...that is when you only get called by BETTER, and fold out worse.

This was why I said a 900 bet at a tight table, with a tight image is not "bad", if there is a strong chance of folding out everyone with that smaller bet, and a jam will ONLY be called by better.

You NEED the blinds/antes enough to want to pick 'em up, and a tight dynamic gives you valuable info that may lead you to NOT pushing your last 10BB without hitting the flop.

Tying this back into your info point #1...

Your POSITION weighs heavily if you do have a tight table...the later you are to act before starting the SNG play, the fewer players there are who might "wake up" with a hand, and the fewer the CALLS might be to bloat the pot out of proportion to your stack size, thus making a SNG play "impossible" because you cannot deny odds in a bloated pot with your remaining chips.
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 12:54 AM
(#9)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post

Factor 3 : Stack sizes .

The size of my 12BB stack prior to the 'SNG' play is one that cannot afford to fold after a standard preflop raise therefore , opponents will know they are playing for my effective stack before they even decide to enter their hand .
Yup, again very important info to recognize; not only YOUR stack, but any stacks behind you...

If there is a short stack who may need to make a stand somewhat lightly behind you, and you hold a hand which stands to be ahead of most of his stand range, then an SNG type raise may be good. He may perceive YOUR failure to commit pre as weak, OR he may perceive a pre flop JAM as weak.

Fact is, versus a wide range behind you because of HIS stack size, you should weigh that BEFORE your elect to SNG or not, and weigh that into your overall decision by doing which ever is most likely to put you into the best spot.
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 01:02 AM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
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Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post

Factor 4 : Table dynamic .

Is the table folding to shoves ? But , calling raises seeing a flop to then re-evaluate . If so , a shove may chip up preflop uncontested whereas , a SNG may build a nice pot preflop but risk being eliminated should AQs not connect .
this definately weighs in...

How your table may "view" your actions, plus whether or not their "depth of thought" extends to folding moderately good hands when they could take a flop, will definately effect your chances of a SNG play working with a hand like AQs.

If they can conceive of you holding a BIG hand, thus you are "begging" for action by not jamming in pre, then an SNG is a nice option; they will probably fold to a 900 raise as readily as to a jam, and only call with hands that have AQs at a disadvantage.

If this isn't likely to cross their minds you MIGHT be hoping for a call by not jamming pre, then your chances with un-paired cards may go way down in terms of the +ev nature of an SNG play. You;d probably be better served open jamming, because players who will call a 900 raise light when it is made by a 3.5k stack, will probably OVER VALUE the same hands and call a pre flop jam; you do not want 'em getting off the hook when their LESSER hands do not spike the flop either.
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 01:08 AM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post

Factor 5 : Tournament situation .

A standard raise may court far more interest - even on the bubble , than a preflop shove would . Again giving opponents a chance to beat a hand that may have simply taken the blinds uncontested with maximum aggression , at such a critical stage in the tournament .

this is actually a good one, and what I did not really address in my initial post.

The tourney stage plays a part of your decision too. Later on, the average chip stacks are not as deep as in the early stages, but there MAY be large stacks who use their chip lead to "attack" perceived weakness. AQs is certainly a hand you are playing on a 13BB stack, so you are probably willing to jam over a 3Bet made by a big stack "pressure player".

Your 3bb open raise (in lieu of an open jam) opens the door for those types to make the mistake of thinking you are ambivalent about your hand (or else you;d jam), so when they raise you stick it back in your face pre flop...this is not exactly a SNG play, but it is a modified form of it versus a specifc player type.

so if you are aware enough to sense how the MTT stage may have changed the dynamic, you can definately use that to weigh a pre flop decision in these sorts of spot.

VERY nice list...

Now I'll work on some of mine...

(will post in a bit, and this time YOU answer with how YOU think this things would effect your decision process, ok?)
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 01:16 AM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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1) What is the overall opponent "trickyness"for those left to act,(you should recognize the ability to change gears)?

2) What is the Overall "skill level" of players left to act. (Are they bad enough to "make a mistake")?

3) Are there any opponents left to act (after youve made your decision) who have taken severe stack swings, and are those players liable to allow that to effect their play?

4) Was there any "table talk" which would allow you to assess the overall "mind set" of your table?

5) What have you done in the past which you can SPECIFICALLY REMEMBER (any acts), which may have been noticed by your table (self memory)?

6) What specific acts (any acts) that your opponents made, that stand out in yur memory (opponent memory)?
 

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