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Should I have given up when he called my flop bet?

 
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Should I have given up when he called my flop bet? - Tue Oct 04, 2011, 09:14 AM
(#1)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Hi it seems to happen alot, I work hard to build up a chip stack, Then i get a big pocket pair and loose it all in one hand, Pre flop I thought i would just call to see if a Ace hit the flop. Post flop i think i have pocket Kings and i am never folding and all your chips are mine. Didn't quite work out that way.
I didnt really have any reads. Is there a way to not lose all my chips?
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 02:00 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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This is a situation where you cannot really be said to have done anything WRONG, but instead you gotta ask whether or not you did the BEST thing you could have here. Consider...

WHY did you choose the line you choose here?

With KK, you hold a hand which is going to "like" a big pre flop pot.
With the min raise, then the 3Bet, then a CALL, then the JAM stand in front of your action, the pot has shown that there is some pretty "heavy" action here; that means you stand a good chance to be facing at least SOME "quality hands" hands here.
Your hand is going to play pretty good for a LARGE bet by you that gets called in this spot.
Yet you FLAT the all-in...why?

The answer to that question must lie within table reads:

There MIGHT be reasons, most specifically, extreme aggression my the 3bettor which would probably see him 4betting lighter than your KK BECAUSE you (and the BB) only flat (among others).

This action (if it happens) would re-open your chance to make a pre-flop jam with the 2nd best start hand in hold 'em, into a palyer who may be loathe to FOLD; that woulda gotten you more value into the pot with your premium holding.

BUT...is this the "best" decision you might have made here?

To answer that question, you must review the "depth of information" upon which you based your decision.
If that info said the BEST way to extract maximum value with your KK was to flat the all-in, then that is fine.

But in this spot, you elect a more "deceptive" play, the flat of the all in, rather than the more "straight forward" value play of re-raising.

Any time you elect a deceptive option which is not also the best STANDARD play, you are defering the potential profit you might make.
There ARE reasons to defer this profit, but if the opponents are "ready" to pay that value NOW to a standard play, why wait until the flop when they might IMPROVE to a better hand?

So when you see the action ahead of you, and weigh that against the hand strength you hold, it is pretty easy to see that had you RAISED over the all in to around 4k to 6k to go, chances are quite good you'd have gotten at LEAST 1 caller. 1 caller is quite un-likely to hold a better pre-flop hand than your's, right?

Now...

I will grant that the JJ hand may NOT have folded, but if he does stick around you are about an 80% favorite over him going to the flop. This is an advantage you will likely have over EVERY opponents' start hand except AA...

Sure, if he does not fold the RESULTS remain the same: he binks lucky with his set, and he probably doubles through your board over pair.

But by NOT raising earlier, you "left value" on the table that might have gotten into the pot with you in the lead.
That is the sort of decision you should be striving to make, getting good value into the pot in the proper situations, NOT the actual results of an individual hand.

As for your post's question...

That depends...

Your flop bet is large, so it is pretty committing for your stack.
Because the size of the pre flop pot, made possible by all the CALLERS, you are not "out of line" in making a pot size bet with your over pair, but that is a pretty committing amount for you.

By allowing 3 live stacks to stick around in the pot, the chance your over pair hand on the flop may not be good has gone up.

To make your line here "good", you really must have a strong supposition that at least 1 villain will commit himself via a CALL (at least) to the pot with a lesser single pair hand on this board. Else-wise, it is preferable to try getting your 'value" into the pot earlier.

But as palyed, once youve made the full pot bet on the flop, you are pretty much 'stuck" with going for it if the KK you hold is still an over pair on a non threatening board much of the time.

See why "thinning the field" a little bit pre-flop may have been the "better" decision?

Last edited by JDean; Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 06:30 PM..
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 05:46 PM
(#3)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Thanks JDean for your in depth response, I don't really know why i just flat called as i normally would have raised in this spot 99 percent of the time. After your response i have a better understanding why it is better to raise and isolate pre flop. Thanks Again
 
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Tue Oct 04, 2011, 06:27 PM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
It really is not a matter of raising to "isolate" really. that is usually done with a MARGINAL hand, but one which still stands to be better against most of the range of an initial raiser. By getting that player all alone, your marginal hand will tend to win more often.

In this spot, you are RAISING (4betting actually) FOR VALUE.

If all the players call along, so be it! Yes, you will win less often but when you win you will win FAR MORE. Your hand's value is such that even 3 or 4 way you will stand to be the on the BEST hand.

Last edited by JDean; Tue Oct 04, 2011 at 06:36 PM..
 

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