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AKs against early rag raising

 
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AKs against early rag raising - Wed Oct 05, 2011, 09:01 AM
(#1)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
It was for about 30 minutes in the tour folding and folding realy marginal hands. only had 99 in the early stages wich i wouldn't risk by all the callers.

this hand, i hadn't a realy good read on the villain but he played a lot of hands he raise early so i called my AKs to see the flop. His 4 BB raise ranged him on 99+ ATs+ and AJ+ because of his many playing hands

Then vilain 2 shoves shortstacked and i put him on any A or broadway or any decent pair 77+

by calling the both i made myself commited and after vilain 1 shoves i think he is protecting a low pair or highend single A. i have to pay 810 to get 3620 gives me 4,4 to 1 so i called and obviously lost!!

Question was it better to shove inmediatly to try and push him of????

 
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Wed Oct 05, 2011, 05:17 PM
(#2)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Yes, after the all in gets called by the initial raiser, you should have probably raised the rest of your stack.

The idea at work here is that since calling the FIRST raise is pretty committing, you cannot really fold if you miss the flop.

As such, you want to be certain you are not allowing a hand to come along which may out flop you, OR which will fold for the rest of your stack on some boards. Consider...

Let's say we read the initial raiser on the range you say.
This means he might be AHEAD (with a pp) or BEHIND (with a lesser A).

When the initial raiser calls the 700 all in, at that point (since you are committed), you do not benefit from letting him go to the flop cheaply.

- if an A or K flops, he might FOLD a small/medium pp for the rest of your stack if you shove
You then lose value you may have gotten with a pre-flop shove.

- if an A or K does NOT flop, and he has a middle pp, you are now faced with what to do if HE bets, or checks. Do you "stand" on what might be just a 6 out draw, or do you check and maybe give him another chance to "catch up" if he has a worse A?

So by going all in, you either create "dead money" that the initial raiser has added to the pot then folds away....OR you ensure yourself maximum value from any hand you might make, since calling your all in means the initial raiser no longer has the option of folding on some boards.

In this case, calling the 400 initial raise to take the flop with AKs is a bit dicey since it sees you putting about 27% of your stack in and possibly folding to a missed flop (about 2/3rds the time). , But that action is at least somewhat possible to to take against a strong range which will include a lot of pp. Once you see the all in though, you gotta go for it all with a hand that is a "race" against everything but the 2 best hands in hold 'em.

(note: a FOLD after calling the 400 raise is MARGINALLY possible, much like folding on the flop to a C-Bet would be. To me though, after putting 27% in that is REALLY nitty. I'd need to be SURE the range I was facing is quite strong, and the one you cite is not strong enough to get me to fold after putting in 400 of a 1500 start stack.)
 
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Wed Oct 05, 2011, 06:01 PM
(#3)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Hi - this is PSO Premier Tourney right?

You seem to have lost a fair few chips already and are down to 15BBs at a relatively early stage of the tournament. I like this spot for trying to get back in shape or bust and I am all for a preflop shove here, given that the 4xraise by the villain that you call is shoved over by the small stack after the rest of the field have folded. You know you have a limited number of opponents, only one that can bust you and a good number of chips in already. I couldn't see myself getting away once those preflop chips are in. A shove might make the villain think twice about what was a pretty poor opening play on their part, so I hope you took some notes on them. Obviously they get lucky, which happens and won't be affected by your preflop action if they still come along to a shove.

You've made a nice start in the league I see, you have to be prepared for some of these early outs and the points losses are not as bad as many players think, so risking your already depleted stack here was definitely a decent option, but as you were prepared to get it all in the preflop shove seems optimal.

Good luck

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Hand Analysis - Wed Oct 05, 2011, 06:20 PM
(#4)
GlenfordSam's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 17
Hi, (PS. this is not a reply but cry for help)

I am not sure how to have my hand analysed or how to go about anything regarding that.
I am a dummy as to how to use the software to assist me in improving my game. Because I am working I am unable to attend the live sessions. I do not have a bank of cash and have a family to take care of but I believe I have what it takes to be a much better player.
What advise do u have for someone like me who does not have a lot of time maybe 4 to 5 hours a day which i use to play the tourney at 20:00ET.

Sometimes I stay away from work to play like today's Premier League 14:00ET with 595 players...I finished 29th.

I really need help please.



GlenfordSam
 
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Wed Oct 05, 2011, 09:25 PM
(#5)
matt0278's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 65
you have 16 bigs to a 4bb raise you either shove or fold pre. never be calling in this spot you are risking too high of a percent of your chips by calling and missing like that if you intend to get it in do it preflop and get the garbage hands out before the flop garbage against your strong hand
 
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Wed Oct 05, 2011, 11:11 PM
(#6)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Note to those saying just go all in over the first raise, not call...

For a STANDARD pay structure event I'd definately agree with this. If there is a lot of escalation in benefit between making it ITM, and lasting 20 or 30 more spots, the chance to get chips NOW versus saving fewer BB call for going for it over the 1st raiser.

But a LEAGUE GAMER is not going to supply the same escalation of benefit, and also carries a penalty which effects later league scoring, for earlier busts. These factors lead to a less risky approach, and possibly keeping 1100 chips on which to "ladder climb" (should the AK miss he flop) can be the difference between making it to + points, and not making it.

But f this were a STANDARD event, I probably go for it as soon as I see the initial raise.
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 02:22 AM
(#7)
chuckkky's Avatar
Since: Dec 2010
Posts: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenfordSam View Post
Hi, (PS. this is not a reply but cry for help)

I am not sure how to have my hand analysed or how to go about anything regarding that.
I am a dummy as to how to use the software to assist me in improving my game. Because I am working I am unable to attend the live sessions. I do not have a bank of cash and have a family to take care of but I believe I have what it takes to be a much better player.
What advise do u have for someone like me who does not have a lot of time maybe 4 to 5 hours a day which i use to play the tourney at 20:00ET.

Sometimes I stay away from work to play like today's Premier League 14:00ET with 595 players...I finished 29th.

I really need help please.



GlenfordSam



Hi , Try this link.
Chuckkky

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...r-Instructions


 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 05:43 AM
(#8)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Note to those saying just go all in over the first raise, not call...

For a STANDARD pay structure event I'd definately agree with this. If there is a lot of escalation in benefit between making it ITM, and lasting 20 or 30 more spots, the chance to get chips NOW versus saving fewer BB call for going for it over the 1st raiser.

But a LEAGUE GAMER is not going to supply the same escalation of benefit, and also carries a penalty which effects later league scoring, for earlier busts. These factors lead to a less risky approach, and possibly keeping 1100 chips on which to "ladder climb" (should the AK miss he flop) can be the difference between making it to + points, and not making it.

But f this were a STANDARD event, I probably go for it as soon as I see the initial raise.

I agree there is a difference in playing the PSO for League points than a standard payout structure event, and as we are only a couple of months into the new Premier League I don't have much data yet, but here is what I think from what I have seen so far.

Due to the smaller field sizes in the Premier League, where the attrition rate of people busting is much, much slower than in the Open Skill League, they play much more like a standard MTT. I am basically treating them as such. As this hand is at such an early stage I would be asking myself is it a good spot to get back to an average+ chipstack. If I have put a lot of chips in then fold, I am drastically reducing my chances of making the top 50%, let alone the top 25-30% where I am likely to gain positive points. If I win I have given myself a good shot at getting there, if I lose and bust I know I will get a big hit of negative points.

As the blind structure is pretty harsh in these as well, the chips left after calling the 4x raise and the small stack shove preflop - 800 odd, are not going to give us much hope to last deep.On balance I would take my chances here, risking -15 points as against folding to the small stack shove pre or folding post flop when I am committed. If we are good it is a nice pot to continue. If we lose it is -15 points and if we fold after committing so many chips, the most likely outcome (unless we make a really good comeback) will still be a negative points finish.

As well as this, I am enjoying being able to treat the PSO Premier League games as a more standard style tournament, so that I can take more standard lines and practice a better style of play to take out into the games I am paying to enter.

Good luck all


Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 02:03 PM
(#9)
ILuvPoker77's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlenfordSam View Post
Hi, (PS. this is not a reply but cry for help)

I am not sure how to have my hand analysed or how to go about anything regarding that.
I am a dummy as to how to use the software to assist me in improving my game. Because I am working I am unable to attend the live sessions. I do not have a bank of cash and have a family to take care of but I believe I have what it takes to be a much better player.
What advise do u have for someone like me who does not have a lot of time maybe 4 to 5 hours a day which i use to play the tourney at 20:00ET.

Sometimes I stay away from work to play like today's Premier League 14:00ET with 595 players...I finished 29th.

I really need help please.

GlenfordSam
Sam,

I'm a relative newbie, so please take what I say with a grain of salt. But I would offer you the following advice, from an outsider's perspective:

1) If you really want to improve your game, you should aim to spend as much of your time studying as playing. Even if you are unable to attend live training sessions, there are tons of videos in the archive that will help you a lot if you watch them. In addition, there are plenty of good books on poker strategy, as well as online articles, and the excellent advice given in these forums (I try to always make the time to read the new hand analyses every day, not just on the hands I post, but on all the hands posted, because it is so educational).

2) The link to the hand replayer instructions was given earlier in this thread, so that should help you out with that issue. What I usually do when I want a hand analyzed is as follows: If I have just recently played the hand and still have the tournament table open, I go into the instant hand history, select the hand, and then copy the text to a text file (notepad or word doc is fine for this). Then, later on, I can load it to the hand replayer for posting on the forum or just for my own private review. If, for some reason, I didn't get the hand history right after it happened, I either request the hand history for the tournament or, if the hand just knocked me out, I request the history for my last "1 hand".

If you don't know the tournament number, you can change your tourney filter to show running and/or completed tournaments, find the tournament you played, and use that number to request the hand histories.

Alternately, you can request all your hand histories for a period of time, and sift through them looking for the hand you want.

Hand histories can be requested via the "requests" menu in the PokerStars software, and will be delivered to you via email.

3) If you don't have enough VPPs to watch school videos you want to see, and you do have a bit of a bankroll, you may want to spend some of your poker time playing real money games (as opposed to league tournaments) so you can earn the VPPs needed to watch those videos.

4) As an outsider, it seems to me that your first priorities should be your "real" job and your family. It is definitely good to make time for poker, but maybe set yourself a goal of playing 2 or so tournaments a week, and spending an equal amount of time studying strategy. I advise treating your poker practice and education as a sort of "night school", and look at your goals over the long term rather than just this month's Premier League, for example. If you believe you have what it takes to become a pro eventually, and that is your ultimate goal, then I think you should be aiming for a balance between studying and playing that will make your dream possible at some point in the future (via making substantial improvements to your game), rather than treading water spending all your available poker time competing in the league to try to win monthly prize money in the short term.

Finally, I would tend not to recommend taking time off work to play poker, at least not on a regular basis, unless you are already good enough at poker to consider switching careers in the near future.

Best of luck to you!

~Luv
 

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