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I'm Gonna Give Cowboy's Challenge a Try Too :)

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I'm Gonna Give Cowboy's Challenge a Try Too :) - Thu Oct 06, 2011, 08:09 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Well, so I've been playing poker for little over a year now, with mixed results return-wise ($). It's hard to know for sure because I don't really keep records. Mostly I just know that my bankroll's been boomeranging between $50 and $100 the last six months, which is what's tended to show up on the tracking sites. Here's a graph for my last 100 Sit 'n Go's:



More zig-zags than Missoni For Target! The one bright spot was with when I was playing $1.50 full-ring turbo Sit-n-gos ... it's the part of the graph that looks like a cat head (in-between the two ears) - such a small sample size, but it seemed like I was doing okay. So those are the games I'm going to try to play for Cowboy's Challenge.

I got impatient and tried moving up a level to the $3.50 full-ring turbo SNG's and totally tanked - it's the right-side of the 'cat face' in the graph. Hard to believe just one level would make that much of a difference, but it seemed like everybody at the higher level excelled at playing the patience game, whereas at the lower level my lack of patience wasn't so pronounced? I still feel kind of clumsy and awkward at times playing these things - like I'm not always sure what to do. But I guess what with all the great resources in the video library, and everybody's helpful tips, it might be enough to do okay


So here's my progress so far:

Starting Bankroll: $37.50 ( 25 x $1.50 )

Oct 1 ............... 9/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$36 .00
Oct 1.................4/9..................-$1.50.................... $0.00................$34.50
Oct 2.................2/9..................-$1.50...................+$3.56................$38. 06
Oct 2.................8/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$36 .56
Oct 2.................1/9..................-$1.50...................+$5.95................$42. 51
Oct 2.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$41 .01
Oct 2.................9/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$38 .51
Oct 2.................3/9..................-$1.50...................+$2.37................$40. 88
Oct 2.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$39 .38
Oct 6.................7/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$37 .88
Oct 6.................1/9..................-$1.50...................+$5.95................$43. 83


(Will have to add the game numbers and check the numbers later )

Gonna try to keep watching more videos from the library as I go, so hopefully I'll be able to do a little better than just break even. Will see how it goes ...

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 06, 2011 at 09:43 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 08:16 PM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
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keeping it in the green is always good sam!!
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 08:24 PM
(#3)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,027
(Community Coordinator)
Nice Job Sam!
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 08:36 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Thx everybody! Had to stop myself at the 3.50 level before I ended up like that guy from the Sunday Million

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 06, 2011 at 08:38 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:29 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
Sam were you to take on this challenge I know that you could beat it. Like a drum would be my guess. THEN make your MTT excursions fit within the parameters of the monies won from the challenge. See? If you find a game,or games, that you know that you can beat--"go-to" games as I call them and then fit your other plays to fit inside of the bubble of monies won in those games then you will never be an unprofitable player as long as you continue to follow that discipline. If you run a little "off" in the money making games then dial down your other plays accordingly,either by buy-in level or frequency of play.

That's what worked for me anyway. I knew I could beat the .25 45 and 90 man SNG's (was roughly +35% ROI in them) and used what I won there to pay for my MTT excursions (higher variance in these of course) and my ring table plays (just plain suck-ass break even donk in those to be brutally honest).

Said it before,say it again. Make a battle plan that works FOR YOU. Then follow it and make adjustments when necessary.

Why do I think you could beat the challenge? Just from reading posts you've made in the HA and other sections I know that you are easily way ahead at least 80% of the players in these. Remember don't try to beat the donks,make the donks try to beat you. Play nitty early,try to get to the bubble (I define the bubble as 12 players left in the 45 mans and 18 left in the 90 mans personally) every time and then take advantage of the weak,exploitable players. They should be readily apparent by this time.
Arrrghhh ... my internet's been down

Anyhoo, thanks for the encouragement Moxie I had the funniest hand the other day ... okay like I know I have it in me to be patient, since I've learned through PSO to not play with a VPIP higher than 6 But it doesn't come naturally, so I thought I'd try to resist temptation to play early on by reading People Magazine online, and then only play premium hands. But then the table popped up and well ... look at what happened:



Disaster with the accidental 3bet of 92o! But how interesting to see that I was up against QTo (min-raising utg short-stacked, and then calling my weird 3bet). I guess it's like you said ... it did kind of make me feel like yeah, just maybe it might be possible to do okay with these sit n gos (that surfing the net I guess wasn't such a hot idea will just have to try harder to be patient ). 35% ROI's incredible! I'm gonna give it my best shot and see how it goes ... any sort of +% ROI would be pretty sweet haha

PS I haven't been playing mtt's too much - I got a free $33 WCOOP satty ticket for making a deposit, and then Stars had that Silver Star 'sale' where they lowered the bar and made it easier to get FPPs (that I then used to play satellites to the big $2.20). And then I accidentally signed up for a satty to SCOOP when I was nosing around and won a ticket. So my MTT graph looks atrocious! LOL! But in reality, combined with my PSO winnings, I haven't had to deposit to keep playing, which has been nice (I did the deposit to get the free ticket, but I haven't really used the extra money sort of a deal). Thank goodness for PSO! I think I read somewhere that MTT's aren't a good way to build a bankroll, eh?


Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 06, 2011 at 09:38 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:40 PM
(#6)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Well, so I've been playing poker for little over a year now, with mixed results return-wise ($). It's hard to know for sure because I don't really keep records. Mostly I just know that my bankroll's been boomeranging between $50 and $100 the last six months, which is what's tended to show up on the tracking sites. Here's a graph for my last 100 Sit 'n Go's:



More zig-zags than Missoni For Target! The one bright spot was with when I was playing $1.50 full-ring turbo Sit-n-gos ... it's the part of the graph that looks like a cat head (in-between the two ears) - such a small sample size, but it seemed like I was doing okay. So those are the games I'm going to try to play for Cowboy's Challenge.

I got impatient and tried moving up a level to the $3.50 full-ring turbo SNG's and totally tanked - it's the right-side of the 'cat face' in the graph. Hard to believe just one level would make that much of a difference, but it seemed like everybody at the higher level excelled at playing the patience game, whereas at the lower level my lack of patience wasn't so pronounced? I still feel kind of clumsy and awkward at times playing these things - like I'm not always sure what to do. But I guess what with all the great resources in the video library, and everybody's helpful tips, it might be enough to do okay


So here's my progress so far:

Starting Bankroll: $37.50 ( 25 x $1.50 )

Nov 1 ............... 9/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$36 .00
Nov 1.................4/9..................-$1.50.................... $0.00................$34.50
Nov 2.................2/9..................-$1.50...................+$3.56................$38. 06
Nov 2.................8/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$36 .56
Nov 2.................1/9..................-$1.50...................+$5.95................$42. 51
Nov 2.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$41 .01
Nov 2.................9/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$38 .51
Nov 2.................3/9..................-$1.50...................+$2.37................$40. 88
Nov 2.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$39 .38
Nov 6.................7/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$37 .88
Nov 6.................1/9..................-$1.50...................+$5.95................$43. 83


(Will have to add the game numbers and check the numbers later )

Gonna try to keep watching more videos from the library as I go, so hopefully I'll be able to do a little better than just break even. Will see how it goes ...
Just out of curiosity are these results from 2010 as Nov isn't here yet! I J S .

Gidee Up!

 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:42 PM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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haha - oops!

I was copying your example on how to show the data, and forgot to change the month

(gonna go fix it now! )
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:43 PM
(#8)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Arrrghhh ... my internet's been down

Anyhoo, thanks for the encouragement Moxie I had the funniest hand the other day ... okay like I know I have it in me to be patient, since I've learned through PSO to not play with a VPIP higher than 6 But it doesn't come naturally, so I thought I'd try to resist temptation to play early on by reading People Magazine online, and then only play premium hands. But then the table popped up and well ... look at what happened:



Disaster with the accidental 3bet of 92o! But how interesting to see that I was up against QTo (min-raising utg short-stacked, and then calling my weird 3bet). It made me feel like yeah, just maybe it might be possible to do okay with these sit n gos (if I can resist surfing the net in between :tongue). 35% ROI's incredible! I'm gonna give it my best shot and see how it goes ... any sort of +% ROI would be pretty sweet haha

PS I haven't been playing mtt's too much - I got a free $33 WCOOP satty ticket for making a deposit, and then Stars had that Silver Star 'sale' where they lowered the bar and made it easier to get FPPs (that I then used to play satellites to the big $2.20). And then I accidentally signed up for a satty to SCOOP when I was nosing around and won a ticket. So my MTT graph looks atrocious! LOL! But in reality, combined with my PSO winnings, I haven't had to deposit to keep playing, which has been nice (I did the deposit to get the free ticket, but I haven't really used the extra money sort of a deal). Thank goodness for PSO! I think I read somewhere that MTT's aren't a good way to build a bankroll, eh?


You realize of course than in some European PSO forum you're being called a donk in their Bad Beat section right now ya?

Wasn't implying that you were playing MTT's too much sorry if that's the way it read. What I AM trying to say is that if you can find a game at each level as you go along (or more than one,search around and do a little research into what's available to you at each level...) then you can work that game to build your roll and use some of the funds to bankroll your plays in higher variance formats,i.e. the MTT's.

I wouldn't want to depend solely on MTT's to build a BR no,but the flip side is that MTT's are the place to be to SPIKE a BR. SNG's and rings is where you can grind up in increments,MTT's are where you can occasionally pop off a score in relation to your bankroll.
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:44 PM
(#9)
Moxie Pip's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,853
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
Just out of curiosity are these results from 2010 as Nov isn't here yet! I J S .

Gidee Up!


If she's THAT prescient I sure as Hell don't want to table with her....
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:54 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
You realize of course than in some European PSO forum you're being called a donk in their Bad Beat section right now ya?

Wasn't implying that you were playing MTT's too much sorry if that's the way it read. What I AM trying to say is that if you can find a game at each level as you go along (or more than one,search around and do a little research into what's available to you at each level...) then you can work that game to build your roll and use some of the funds to bankroll your plays in higher variance formats,i.e. the MTT's.

I wouldn't want to depend solely on MTT's to build a BR no,but the flip side is that MTT's are the place to be to SPIKE a BR. SNG's and rings is where you can grind up in increments,MTT's are where you can occasionally pop off a score in relation to your bankroll.
(well, much deserved )

Now that you mention it, I do remember you mentioning that plan before - probably because I got bogged down trying to accomplish step 1 (building a bankroll by playing STT's) and yet was still playing MTT's for fun, rather than having them be fully funded by STT profits.

And you were pointing out how having that luxury of knowing the tourneys are funded tends to give one more freedom to play for the big bucks when playing the MTT's rather than stress out about min-cashes, knowing it's not going to make or break one's bankroll since that'll never be on the line with them being fully funded by STT profits.

That's some genius strategy there Another benefit of Cowboy's challenge is that it ought to keep me busy so I don't go wandering off to test my luck on MTT's It would be really nice to be able to play them knowing they're funded like that ... I think I can wait

Last edited by TrustySam; Thu Oct 06, 2011 at 09:57 PM..
 
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Thu Oct 06, 2011, 09:55 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moxie Pip View Post
If she's THAT prescient I sure as Hell don't want to table with her....
ya, no such luck haha!
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 02:52 AM
(#12)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
wow good job
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 12:20 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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thx pokerstar!

I'm a lot happier now that I've moved back down to the entry level - just couldn't seem to do anything right at the next level up ... got so frustrating!

So here's the latest ... things seem to be coming along with the patience. I used to call a lot of short-stack shoves - got so tempted by the promise of getting one step closer to the money and the chance to make more chips without any risk of busting. But that rarely seemed to work out the way I would hope So I've tightened up my calling range (and loosened up my shoving range to compensate) and that seems to have make some difference. Still feels like there's room for improvement though because I bubbled twice this morning, and I'm kind of feeling like maybe I should have been able to make the money with those, I'm not sure. Will keep at it and see how it goes ... at least I'm not in the negative ... yet! Fingers crossed things continue to go okay!


Starting Bankroll: $37.50 ( 25 x $1.50 )
(Carryover from before: $43.83)

Oct 7.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$42 .33
Oct 8.................8/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$40 .83
Oct 8.................1/9..................-$1.50...................+$5.95................$46. 78
Oct 8.................4/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$45 .28
Oct 8.................1/9..................-$1.50...................+$5.95................$51. 23
Oct 8.................4/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$49 .73

(17 games?)
 
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Sun Oct 09, 2011, 06:20 PM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post

Still feels like there's room for improvement though because I bubbled twice this morning, and I'm kind of feeling like maybe I should have been able to make the money with those, I'm not sure. Will keep at it and see how it goes ... at least I'm not in the negative ... yet! Fingers crossed things continue to go okay!

Ahhhh ... well, as many of you who have been playing poker for some time now I'm sure can relate to, after my decent run, I hit that dreaded rough patch of variance that turns everything upside down. You just know it's coming LOL ... and sure enough

I won't go into details, because everybody knows the deal - we all have those times where we're card dead, lose to the craziest hands, or get great hands and run into greater. It does get me thinking about poker and profitability though ... the whole thing of, what is it that the people who are turning a profit are doing, and how close/far am I to that? It gets hard to discern to what degree my wins are because of good luck or good play, and to what degree my losses are because of bad luck or bad play. You hear stories about Annette Obrestad winning tournaments without even looking at her cards, based solely on position and reading people, and then I start to wonder whether the cards should even matter?

Well, it's interesting to be able to keep track of all this, the good, the bad, and the ugly, since the variance is part of the game. I'm going to keep playing for a bit and see how it goes ... I feel like there's lessons to be learned in playing these turbos, because the push/fold phase is very similar to late tournament play for MTT's, so like maybe there's value in continuing to practice alongside people who are doing well with that format, even if they're doing better than me (and are kicking my ... )

I might start checking out the stats of the other players at my table to see who's profitable, and then watch what they do, how they play, a little more closely to see if I can pick up any tips. Last week I managed to play 20 games, so I got points for the Batte of the Planets Mercury division - for the block of 20 that I played I ranked 5970th ... that's a lot of regulars, even at the beginner level! Hopefully I'll be able to pick up some ideas from watching some of them in action


Starting Bankroll: $37.50 ( 25 x $1.50 )
(Carryover from before: $49.73)

Oct 8.................9/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$48 .23
Oct 8.................3/9..................-$1.50...................+$2.37................$50. 60
Oct 8.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$49 .10
Oct 8.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$47 .60
Oct 8.................7/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$46 .10
Oct 8.................2/9..................-$1.50...................+$3.56................$49. 66
Oct 8.................7/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$48 .06
Oct 8.................4/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$46 .56
Oct 8.................6/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$45 .06
Oct 9.................4/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$43 .56
Oct 9.................5/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$42 .06
Oct 9.................9/9..................-$1.50.....................$0.00................$40 .56

(29 games ... wow, I'm still up $3.06! Is my math right? )

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Oct 09, 2011 at 06:23 PM..
 
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Wed Oct 12, 2011, 04:28 PM
(#15)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Is my math right?[/COLOR]
omg, I knew something felt wrong with my record-keeping - I downloaded a free SNG record keeper from cnet.com called 'Poker Tourney Tracker' which does the accounting when you type in the data, and I've been in the red for a while now - yikes! Here's the summary:


Games played: 54
Total Buy-Ins: ($ 83.00)
Total Gains: $ 66.89
Net Gains: ($ 16.11)
In The Money: 27.8% ITM
Return On Investment: - 19.4% ROI
Hourly: ($ 0.31)
ITM from Bubble: 57.7%

1st: 5
2nd: 5
3rd: 6
4th: 10
5th: 11
6th: 2
7th: 6
8th: 2
9th: 7

I'd add the results for my games, but there's not that much to see except -$1.50 LOL.

Was hoping to have good news to share, like maybe it wasn't going to be that hard to turn a profit. But that's hasn't been the case, alas It's felt like it's been 50%+/- losing coin flips, running into better hands, or getting sucked out. With that other 50%+/- being me maybe getting a little too panicky on the bubble when the blinds start to get high, and a little too eager/anxious to make the money that I feel like I need to do something, rather than just hurry up and wait?

I don't know ...

I guess now that I think about it, I haven't had that much practice with the push/fold phase - because in PSO, what with points being so important, so often it's more advantageous to blind out in the hopes of making ITM rather than try to double up in hopes of making it far. So maybe it's to be expected that mastering the push/fold late/stage will take some time and practice, eh?

So now I'm not sure what's the best course of action - I really wanted to see this challenge through, but in light of the fact that I'm not even exactly sure what I'm doing wrong, would it be good bankroll management to continue?

On the positive side, I've been raking up VPP's and should easily make 150 by the end of the month - so I'll be eligible for the larger prize in PSSL next month, and if I put the time in, hopefully I'll be able to make another $20 next month. So I'll have the bankroll to give it another try at a later date

Maybe instead of playing the remaining 46 SNG's I'll try to watch 46 vids on SNG's from the library instead And if I run out of vids, I'll try to find 46 articles on push/fold and bubble play

Still committed to making a go of things - just a minor course-correction I guess

Last edited by TrustySam; Wed Oct 12, 2011 at 04:30 PM..
 
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Wed Oct 19, 2011, 10:19 PM
(#16)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Is there anybody who doesn't use HEM or PT3 for a HUD?

I started off using Tournament Indicator and Holdem Indicator, which I got for signing up and playing on other sites, and I liked them at first because they were so much simpler than the other two. They look like this:






But after playing a year, I was starting to wonder if having that detailed breakdown of peoples VPIP by position and stuff, as well as the database of games/sessions might be worth the $44.99 to get. So I downloaded PT3 ... and got it to work (which is a whole others story! Oh boy ... software!

Anyways ... here's the graph for the 44 $1.50 9-player SNG's that I played:



And here's the graph for 2,000+ hands I've played at the 2cent/5cent cash tables:



I'm starting to wonder if maybe I give up too soon as soon as I hit a bad patch of variance. But when it hits, gosh can it ever come in waves sometimes! I start to feel like I'm never going to have a winning session ever again.

Something I found out from PT3's breakdown of wins/losses by table position was that I made over $20 from the button, but lost over $20 in the bb and over $10 in the sb. You think maybe I'm a little too clingy with my blinds when somebody makes a steal attempt?

Thought that was interesting to know - $45 seems like a lot of money to pay when one's only playing at the 5cent tables. But if it prevents me from losing another $30 in blinds, then maybe it'll actually wind up paying for itself.

Still in study mode when it comes to cash tables, and have dropped down from the $1.50 tables to the 25 cent and 10 cent tables ... will see how it goes. Hopefully I'm able to break even on those, because if not, there's no lower stake to drop down to haha!

GL at the tables everybody! Hope people are enjoying the journey of this fun/exciting/frustrating hobby of ours
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 12:04 AM
(#17)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,286
That drop could be variance, or it could be your reaction to variance. Do you tend to open your range after a couple of bad beats or a bunch of cr** hands??

You're on the right track, I know you can do it!!

 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 07:17 AM
(#18)
MEVpaul's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 143
BronzeStar
Yeah Holdem Indicator and Tournament Indicator were great back in the day but now they are somewhat outdated and basic.Still great for beginners Tournament Indicator is great to keep an eye on ur M.
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 08:07 AM
(#19)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Sam I see that you play alot of turbos and this could be a reason for your downswings. They are difficult to master the push/fold ranges so in my opinion jump back to the regular speed games. Its all i play and it turns profits at the micro level.

Gidee Up!
 
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Thu Oct 20, 2011, 08:18 AM
(#20)
Darkman61's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,225
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Something I found out from PT3's breakdown of wins/losses by table position was that I made over $20 from the button, but lost over $20 in the bb and over $10 in the sb. You think maybe I'm a little too clingy with my blinds when somebody makes a steal attempt?

Thought that was interesting to know - $45 seems like a lot of money to pay when one's only playing at the 5cent tables. But if it prevents me from losing another $30 in blinds, then maybe it'll actually wind up paying for itself.
I think you're already considering what I'm going to suggest, but the above two paragraphs don't make it entirely clear.

Drill down a little further to see if you're losing more than 1xBB & 0.5BB respectively per orbit from the blinds. If you are, start folding everything except AA from these positions. A bit drastic I know. But a re-calculation after a similar sample size may convince you of the benefit. If you're happy with the result, add KK for the next batch.

Eventually you'll find your break even point based on hand selection. After that it gets a little more difficult
 

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