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Big 5k hand

 
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Big 5k hand - Fri Oct 07, 2011, 12:34 AM
(#1)
Deleted user
ITM and just switched to a new table.
After looking in the replayer quickly I saw villain was a tad loose.
When he opened I did a quick opr check as well and found he was a new player.
Thats all I have to go on here.

So my questions are:
1.) Should I have bothered with a blocker bet?
Im thinking he might have bet about the same amount that I ended up calling combined with my blocker.

As played I think I gambled with my two pair knowing I was ahead and got screwed by the river.
I wanted to give him a chance to bluff me again but when that ace came I got sick.

PokerStars Game #68594955893: Tournament #541010964, $2.00+$0.20 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XXI (800/1600) - 2011/10/06 21:22:29 PT [2011/10/07 0:22:29 ET]
Table '541010964 173' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: mihke666 (69131 in chips)
Seat 2: Hattenas10 (48230 in chips)
Seat 4: mr berenburg (11599 in chips)
Seat 5: sangaby303 (99250 in chips)
Seat 6: IseeCookies (47510 in chips)
Seat 7: andrejacinto (51743 in chips)
Seat 8: sspar911 (87284 in chips)
Seat 9: zwerg112 (107010 in chips)
mihke666: posts the ante 200
Hattenas10: posts the ante 200
mr berenburg: posts the ante 200
sangaby303: posts the ante 200
IseeCookies: posts the ante 200
andrejacinto: posts the ante 200
sspar911: posts the ante 200
zwerg112: posts the ante 200
sangaby303: posts small blind 800
IseeCookies: posts big blind 1600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to IseeCookies [Kd Jc]
andrejacinto: folds
sspar911: folds
zwerg112: folds
andrejacinto said, "very luck"
mihke666: folds
sspar911 said, "thx"
Hattenas10: raises 2100 to 3700
mr berenburg: folds
sangaby303: folds
IseeCookies: calls 2100
*** FLOP *** [Jh 5h Qs]
IseeCookies: checks
Hattenas10: bets 6400
IseeCookies: calls 6400
*** TURN *** [Jh 5h Qs] [Ks]
IseeCookies: checks
Hattenas10: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jh 5h Qs Ks] [Td]
IseeCookies: bets 4800
Hattenas10: raises 4800 to 9600
GZingano is connected
IseeCookies: calls 4800
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Hattenas10: shows [8s Ah] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
IseeCookies: mucks hand
Hattenas10 collected 41800 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 41800 | Rake 0
Board [Jh 5h Qs Ks Td]
Seat 1: mihke666 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Hattenas10 showed [8s Ah] and won (41800) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 4: mr berenburg (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: sangaby303 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: IseeCookies (big blind) mucked [Kd Jc]
Seat 7: andrejacinto folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: sspar911 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: zwerg112 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 06:55 AM
(#2)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
unlucky, same things always seems to happen to me, get 2 pair and the board comes up super wet... As a new player you can almost feel that he is playing any A, because thats the highest card lol
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 10:27 AM
(#3)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
Why wouldn't you bet the turn there. The villain checked it and that board is super draw heavy. I don't think you assumed he got there on the turn because of his check, so I would bet hard there, and then have to check/call the river if he hung around.
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 11:17 AM
(#4)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Per your Question:

That blocker bet on the river is pretty BAD really.

The reason I say this is simple: blocker bets are usually made with the idea of "setting your own price", either for your DRAW or for the value you are willing to PAY with a given hand.

What you have to realize about the river here when that 4th straight card gets here is that your 2 pair hand has somewhat shrunk in value. As such, if you are beaten you really do NOT want to put more chips in (after getting yourself so deep already), and will be happy for a check down.

A newer player probably will not "see" the very good bluff spot this river card represents, so a check oop by you here is likely to see BETTER HANDS than yours betting, and weaker hands than yours checking behind. If you see a weak bet, you MAY consider a call, but any truly strong bet probably indicates you are most likely done with this one. So if any bet you make will tend to get called by better hands and fold out worse, why make that bet, right?

When YOU launch that "thin value" bet on the river, it may look WEAK (your river bet was only about 20% of the pot) and thus induce a shove with a 1 pair hand held by the villain because he thinks you are weak...you probably cannot call that shove, see?

So by betting weak in an attempt to "block" the villain, you may well have opened up his eyes to the possibility that a 1 pair hand IS "ahead". That means he may launch a bet that would normally be a "bluff", but would really be one he is making thinking he is AHEAD; either way, you probably cannot call...right?

In this spot, if you think there IS a decent chance the villain would call a larger bet with a 1 pair hand only, then you probably should have made the 9600 bet you were willing to call instead. At least that way you can be pretty sure a raise is a better hand than yours and could fold. If you think he would just fold out worse, and call with better, then making NO bet at all is probably better.

Overall though, I have to really wonder about the passive way you played this throughout though...

On the flop, you let yourself get about 20% invested by calling with a 2nd pair hand when your improvement might have improved the VILLAIN's hand even more...If you were not willing to take the lead there, then you could have folded far cheaper.

On the turn, when you DO improve, you also see a 3rd str card on the board and a 2nd possible flush draw. Trying to be deceptive here in hopes of seeing a 2nd bullet is far more likely to lead to you giving a free card. Versus a newer player, you really want to play pretty straight forward poker, because his mistakes will often happen whether you use deception or not.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 12:25 AM..
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 02:35 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by !!!111Dan View Post
Why wouldn't you bet the turn there. The villain checked it and that board is super draw heavy. I don't think you assumed he got there on the turn because of his check, so I would bet hard there, and then have to check/call the river if he hung around.

I agree looking back I should have bet the turn but at the time I had hit 2 pair and I wanted to play for stacks. When he checks back I know exactly what he has and I now know my two pair is good.
River comes and I instantly know I have a problem.

To get him to put it all in I felt checking turn would give him a chance to do something on the river.
I would have bet light,but not as light as my blocker and he could call or shove over top as a bluff.

Looking at his bet sizing on the flop tells me he doesnt have anything yet.
In the hands I witnessed he bet small when he had it all streets.

I only posted this hand because I have some questions about the way I am using blockers on the river.
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 02:46 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDean View Post
Per your Question:

That blocker bet on the river is pretty BAD really.

The reason I say this is simple: blocker bets are usually made with the idea of "setting your own price", either for your DRAW or for the value you are willing to PAY with a given hand.

What you have to realize about the river here when that 4th straight card gets here is that your 2 pair hand has somewhat shrunk in value. As such, if you are beaten you really do NOT want to put more chips in (after getting yourself so deep already), and will be happy for a check down.

A newer player probably will not "see" the very good bluff spot this river card represents, so a check oop by you here is likely to see BETTER HANDS than yours betting, and weaker hands than yours checking behind. If you see a weak bet, you MAY consider a call, but any truly strong bet probably indicates you are most likely done with this one. So if any bet you make will tend to get called by better hands and fold out worse, why make that bet, right?

When YOU launch that "thin value" bet on the river, it may look WEAK (your river bet was only about 20% of the pot) and thus induce a shove with a 1 pair hand held by the villain because he thinks you are weak...you probably cannot call that shove, see?

So by betting weak in an attempt to "block" the villain, you may well have opened up his eyes to the possibility that a 1 pair hand IS "ahead". That means he may launch a bet that would normally be a "bluff", but would really be one he is making thinking he is AHEAD; either way, you probably cannot call...right?

In this spot, if you think there IS a decent chance the villain would call a larger bet with a 1 pair hand only, then you probably should have made the 9600 bet you were willing to call instead. At least that way you can be pretty sure a raise is a better hand than yours and could fold. If you think he would just fold out worse, and call with better, then making NO bet at all is probably better.

Overall though, I have to really wonder about the passive way you played this throughout though...

On the flop, you let yourself get about 20% invested by calling with a 2nd pair hand when your improvement might have improved the VILLAIN's hand even more...If you were not willing to take the lead there, then you could have folded far cheaper.

On the turn, when you DO improve, you also see a 3rd str card on the board and a 2nd possible flush draw. Trying to be deceptive here in hopes of seeing a 2nd bullet is far more likely to lead to you giving a free card. Versus a newer player, you really want to play pretty straight forward poker, because his mistakes will often happen whether you use deception or not.
Really bad? Tell me how you really feel...lol! From the looks of things you hate every street.

As stated in the post I was looking for feedback on the blocker bet.

I have the tendency to bet weak blockers giving my self the choice to call if they minbet.
I fold to anything else but I may call the minbet depending on timing tells.

Can tell you that the villain would not be checking it down,so that idea is a write off from the start.
Players that bluff early on in the streets tend to follow through and dont like showing down.
So I throw out a weak blocker that often weak players end up calling in these spots.
The idea that they see it as a weak hand is up for speculation.

You have players that fold to weak bets seeing them as strength and you have others that dont respect them at all. There is no one camp in thinking on this. You cant say that you bet
the amount against all styles of player right?

My reasoning is that he is not checking it down and I want to see a showdown since I have so many chips in the pot already. So I put out a weak blocker with the choice of calling his minbet or folding to it. It works the same,sizing really doesnt matter here when it comes to the blocker in this spot.
I bet 9600 like you say and he is minbetting that with a ace all day long.So I feel that this is a proper line to get to a showdown.

I post for the reason I want people to poker holes in my thinking so I can really get a handle on this play.Comes up at least once a tourney and twice if I run deep.
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 03:37 PM
(#7)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Nah Cookies...I worded it as I did because I know you can take it. You are NOT so new at poker that you cannot "see" why the line you took in this hand was not the best it could be...

Fact is, if you really LOOK at your actions here, you sort of fell into a bit of "fancy play syndrome", and it cost you big time.

The truth of poker is that often deceptive plays, when they are not also the best straight forward plays (such as when you flop quads on a 22T board) comes at a cost in terms of loss immediate profit. That loss of immediate profit is ok if the deception leads to greater value in the hand for you on LATER streets (at least greater value than you would have gotten by betting immediately), or if it is done as a way to make yourself less read-able for very aware players.

When you are facing newer, less skilled, or less aware opponents, the delayed profits from deceptive plays are less likely to be realized.

A) Their tendencies are to call too much, and call too weakly (especially with any draw hopes), so delaying value into the pot may dry up their ability to call (due to the river ends all hopes)

AND...

B) They are not aware enough to require that you "balance" your plays against them; they really are not noticing that much anyway.

This is why if you were going to play KJ oop, you should have seen that you were probably going to need to use AGGRESSION to win this pot. When you do not lead on your 2nd pair, that is not really enough value to CALL a bet which pushed you up towards 20% invested, and you really should have seen that as a "raise or fold" spot.

Then when you DO spike your 2nd pair, and can have a good feeling about your chances, the 3 straight cards on the board (all broadways) really screams BET! You need to either get value in the pot from him (if he holds a Q and is willing to call), and you do not mind him FOLDING (if he holds a hand that is now a decent draw). You cannot really count on him bluffing all that often JUST because he is a "tad loose", so lacking info on his bluff frequency, you;d be much better served leading that turn...

Seems to me that you may be reaidng TOO MUCH into a stat like VPiP...there are a lot of people who will have the same VPiP, but their post flop actions might be wildly different. Generalization is a very dice-y proposition at a poker table.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 12:25 AM.. Reason: because of a MAJOR typo!
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 04:51 PM
(#8)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
what a noob fish!
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 05:59 PM
(#9)
Deleted user
I feel like this thread is getting sidetracked..I want thoughts on the blocker bet not other aspects of the hand.

@Jdean

Im kind of confused. If some one can handle something does that mean you are given the green light to have a go at them?Havent seen you do that to any one yet so I am confused by it even with your reasoning.
The start of your post you mention I am new to poker,as opposed to how long?
I though 4 years was a decent amount of time online but Im not sure what we are comparing it to.

I have mentioned a few times now that I was only curious about the blocker bet and not my fancy pants syndrome,since I know where I can change that hand and I think its pretty obvious.

Last point is about your claim that I am overusing VPIP which I fail to see how you got there!
Im new to the table so I have maybe 3 hands on the villain,as stated in the OP I used the replayer and found him active. That means I saw him play multiple streets in 3 out of 7 hands and he played them all the same.Combining that with his OPR I could see he was a new player.

Im confused by some people on this forum and its more because I am not like them than anything,so I find it hard to gauge where they are coming from.
For example we had a discussion earlier this week about a hand and you me scratching my head.
I think this post left me even more baffled because you leave such long responses I would think you looked at all the details.

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...hand-in-tourny

The above hand I was talking about post flop,since I stated in a prior post that preflop didnt matter I presumed it would be clear.Your response to me was strange because you made it look like
I was talking about preflop and then you talked about leading out which is not what happened.
The funny part is no one questioned it and I left it alone for close to 2 days.
I can dismiss that but now we have the situation popping up again I have to question it.

@roomik

I know what your doing here.
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 10:26 PM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
OOOOPS! MAJOR OOPS!

Cookie, I meant to type in "you are NOT so new"

that probably skews the entirety of the rest of what I typed...

My intent, based on what I've seen you post in the forums, is that you are NOT so new to poker that you cannot see what I was driving at!

I am so sorry about that!
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 10:31 PM
(#11)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
As for the comment made 'it seems to me you are reading too much into stats like VPiP" I based that on the info you provide at the start...

"I'm new to the table, and the player was somewhat loose"

the way I read through the rest of your post led me to the impression that you based a deceptive play choice on the fact that this opponent, BECAUSE he was "loose", would also be prone to bluffs and over-aggressive C/R's and such.

I was just trying to point out that making those sorts of assumptions just on HUD data, or any minimal data at all, can be dangerous and costly. Far better to adopt a more standard value line until you can get a sense of how often he may bluff.
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 10:46 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
As for the hand link you put up...yup, I mis-read it.

The fact is though, the CALL that pokerstar671 choose to make there, instead of a raise, kept the pot small enough that he should not want to call off his remaining chips on a coordinated board with very little shot at improving; he can find a better spot.

The thing your note of my "miss" DOES change is that had he re-raised (perfectly valid) the open bet, any standard amount probably commits him for the jam.

...he did not re-raise though, so my original thoughts are still valid I think.

If your reason for calling that thread up is because I do not necessarily hold with your thought that a LARGER pre-flop raise is better, that is not necessarily true...

I do find SOME validity in larger pre flop raises in MTTs when the table is extremely loose pre flop, and more discpilined post flop. Those LARGER raises tend to build the pot quicker, and then result in a larger "take down" when you fire a strong follow up on the flop.

That was what I meant by "playing for pairs"...

FYI...

At the '07 PSO convention, in his lecture TJ Cloutier said that he tends to adopt that very strategy, making his early event raises slightly LARGER than the opponents' at the table, simply BECAUSE he wins slightly more on each take down. Far be it from ME to poo-poo any strategy used with some frequency by one of the all time GREAT MTT players!

My statements were meant to show the DOWNSIDE of that strategy though, and my preference for NOT going for the bigger raises. I would have to do them "across the board", and some of the hands I would be forced to fold to play back would then cost me MORE than my opponents are losing it situations.

This is not a question of 1 way is better than the other, but rather a question of PREFERENCE. As long as you are aware of the pluses and minuses of both methods of approaching pre-flop raising, either can be effective.

I thought I had made clear that I was expressing my PREFERENCE, not a judgement.
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 10:59 PM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
so to sum up everything here Cookies, I have respect for your forum posts, and your play.

It was not my intent to slag you, but when I see that MAJOR TYPO, right off the bat it looks like that is what 'm doing!

One little word missing, and it changes the whole tenor...

Sure, I "hated" every street...I found your play far too passive...
- by not leading the flop if you thought the villain is wide and might have missed, plus when you CALLED for a big part of your stack rather than test him...

...and far too loose.
- if you don't think you can take it down with a raise, why do you want to draw at 5 outs for 20% of your stack?

Then when you DO bink one of your 5 outs, you get "tricky" by not leading out when there is a strong chance you;e taken the lead.

So I cannot say this hand was played well at all, but dude if I dug up some of MY HH's and showed the crap I've done at times, you'd puke in your mouth!

(Just the other night I was playing a winner take all ticket free roll on another site. We were FT with 5 left, and I was 3rd stack. Guy to my immediate left had jammed my BTN raises 3 times straight, despite the fact I was only button raising like 1 orbit in 3 from the time we were 6 handed. After folding 3 orbits to his steal jams, he would jam like 25BB into my 30BB stack, I raised on the BTN with 85h...then when he jammed yet AGAIN, I called! Stupid stupid stupid. I was "right" he was "stealing" with an A4o, and I had folded KQ/AJ/77 to his prior jams...did me no good at all though, I STILL made a raise with a hand I could not possibly call a jam into a guy I just about KNEW would jam, then CALLED that jam pretty hopeless of being ahead. That doesn;t mean I "suck" at poker...it only means I had a "brain fart" by letting my emotions get the better of me in an event that really didn;t matter to me much, on a site I have no real interest in playing at. all those are NOT good enough reaosns to make a stupid play like that, and i "should" be eliminating those sorts of things from my game 100% no matter WHERE I'm playing!

I see this hand by you in the same way: a good player has one BADLY played hand...it happens. You had the courage to put it up here, so I gave my honest opinion on the play, and included why I put that up. My hope was that others might see the "whys" behind what I thought were bad decisions, and avoid them in their own games.)

Last edited by JDean; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 12:17 AM..
 
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Fri Oct 07, 2011, 11:52 PM
(#14)
joy7108's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,287
So glad you boys aren't fighting!! You're both peeps I admire, so would hate to see you squabbling.

 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 12:14 AM
(#15)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Believe me joy...i did NOT intend to say cookies is NEW to poker...

THAT was a huge typo.

sheesh how dumb.
 
Old
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 01:17 AM
(#16)
Deleted user
I take things out of context to often and read into things.
Hate the internet for that,really need to see a face when some one is talking to you.

No issues for me,besides fixing that leak.
 

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