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What is optimal Play?

 
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What is optimal Play? - Sat Oct 08, 2011, 09:54 AM
(#1)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Okay Posse,

The Cowboy is asking you to make the decision! Am I folding, flatting or jamming..... or is there another option?
This is a single table sng and we are already in the money! I don't think stats are really making a diff here but let me just tell you I have been aggressively trying to take their money and especially at buble time i was asking the question.... " which one of you guys wants to finish 4th?" I was the chip leader and they were passive so you tell me from this info what do I do?

my bad i forgot to add the hand.

PokerStars Game #68656108994: Tournament #451940192, $3.11+$0.39 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2011/10/08 9:39:06 ET
Table '451940192 1' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: Cushparek (1530 in chips)
Seat 4: 19honu62 (8680 in chips)
Seat 9: Joe Koool (3290 in chips)
Cushparek: posts the ante 25
19honu62: posts the ante 25
Joe Koool: posts the ante 25
19honu62: posts small blind 100
Joe Koool: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 19honu62 [4d Ah]
Cushparek: raises 1305 to 1505 and is all-in

Gidee Up!

Last edited by 19honu62; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 11:29 AM..
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 10:26 AM
(#2)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Do you have a hand replayer to view ?
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 12:01 PM
(#3)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
from your description I'm passing on this 1. I'm not going to double up the passive shorty, and give him new life. even if he takes the blinds he is still only at about 9 bigs. I would probably shove first in but definitely not call or reshove. let the big blind handle this 1 if he so desires. better spots down the road. you are in no hurry. My.02
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 12:35 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,802
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what type of hands has the opp showed? All solid hands, or alot of questionable ones?
If the opp was showing marginal hands, then I'm calling because I'd still have over double the 2nd stack if I lost. If the opp was playing tight and only premium cards, then I'd muck once and let him have it..... but if the opp wanted to start doing it frequently, I'm calling with the first decent hand I get.
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 01:23 PM
(#5)
r0ck.carver's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 201
i'd pass this one cowboy...lots of time for better chances. Let the BB take him on if he chooses, the push has polarized the play he's got air or a monster and if he's got 2 napkins you're still not that far ahead. Great example tho thought about it for several minutes down various lines of play..... but as noted previously why double him up with such light holdings. "A" rag is tough to play post flop even if you hit the top pr.

look forward to your answer as to what you did.

GL at the tables and thx for all the hard work at the live training !!! r0ck
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 02:35 PM
(#6)
77wopke77's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
BronzeStar
let this one pass i think u stumble over ur 4 if u bumb heads!!
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 02:47 PM
(#7)
PaidInFull6's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 342
I tend to pass A rag in this spot, I steal blinds with it but I don't want to call all ins with it. When you PokerStove it he has to be shoving more than 55% of hands for you to be a favorite and even in that case your still only a coin flip. A call for 17% of your stack for a coin flip at best and possibly a huge dog at worse is not your ideal situation. So I fold this one and continue to steal blinds and pound away.
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 05:38 PM
(#8)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Clear fold.

The times A4 is "ahead" of the even a WIDE jam range by the short stack, Cowboy is rarely much more than a 60/40 favorite.

If there were more hands in a short stack's range that Cowboy is a solid "dominating" favorite over (72/28 type domination, vs the "weak" domination of A4o over A2o that sees A4o only about a 53% fav), he could potentially JAM over the short stack to iso on him.

Since giving a double up to the short stack here creates 2 stacks that become "threat stacks" for Cowboy (either of them can swap stacks sizes with Cowboy if he doubles the shortie, and doubles EITHER player again), He is far better served in "letting" the shortie "steal" the blinds and antes only , rather than face the possiblitiy of running into a choice between KQ, 77, and A9...

ALSO...

The BB has a stack that Cowboy definately does NOT want to double up, as doing so would cost him about 38% of his chips, and greatly increase the 2nd stack's chance of taking 1st place.

Since Cowboy flatting the all-in makes a flat along by the BB un-likely (BB would have to put near half his chips in to stay, and would be pretty committed by that), doing so adds nothing to Cowboy's potential win here, beyond MAYBE knocking 1 player out. Since we've already shown that A4o is not FAR ENOUGH AHEAD often enough to really want to run the risk of loss really, we'd need a chance at added value to change our minds off a fold; flatting doesn't do enough to change our minds.

A JAM (or any raise) to iso by Cowboy means the only action by the BB can be to "play for stacks". A4o is not going to fare well versus ANY holding the BB has with which he is willing to play for stacks, not when he can FOLD and possibly lock up at least 2nd place money. So again, a Jam does nothing for us.

If we cannot CALL, if we cannot JAM (or raise), then our only choice left is to FOLD.

NOTE:

There ARE opponents against which a CALL or a JAM could be "better". But all those situations require that you adopt an "exploitative" strategy to take advantage of an opponents' tendencies. This thread asks for the OPTIMAL LINE, and that is the line which gives the best chance of "right" most often. That choice is a FOLD.
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 07:02 PM
(#9)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
Okay Posse,

The Cowboy is asking you to make the decision! Am I folding, flatting or jamming..... or is there another option?
I agree with JDean, optimal line is to fold. I just wanted to complete the answer. I believe there is another option. Raise, but not all in.

Reckon Cowboy was in a 'shove any ace mood' though, went for it and took it down - do tell.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 07:14 PM
(#10)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
I agree with JDean, optimal line is to fold. I just wanted to complete the answer. I believe there is another option. Raise, but not all in.

Reckon Cowboy was in a 'shove any ace mood' though, went for it and took it down - do tell.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
Yup, you are right...that is another option.

I'd point out though, that is an EXPLOITATIVE play.

It would be an action designed to "freeze" the BB from shoving, by stating in effect, "I have such a BIG hand I do not want to put you all in, but I am perfectly willing to make a RAISE just PRAYING you jam so I can call". A4o certainly does not carry THAT kind of strength, so making this play is designed to "force" the BB into an act he'd otherwise not make. The effect of this play would be to lock out the BB from calling with the weaker Aces which "dominate" A4o, hands like AQ/AJ/AT/66/77/88, with which he might CALL a limp if it works, and would make it LESS LIKELY Cowboy could fold to a BB jam, thus costing him more if he is behind.

Cowboy specifically asked for the OPTIMAL play, so your play thought certainly has validity Edinman, but it is one with which you'd need more info on the BB's tendencies to enact. It also runs the risk of GREATER than necessarily loss in order to have a larger chance of facing the short stack all in alone, so by definition it is 'exploitative" not "optimal".

Perhaps i'm being more literal than Cowboy intended, but the point you bring up does illustrate very well the DIFFERENCE between an "optimal" and "exploitative" play Edinman.

Nice add.

Last edited by JDean; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 07:18 PM..
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 08:13 PM
(#11)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdinFreeMan View Post
I agree with JDean, optimal line is to fold. I just wanted to complete the answer. I believe there is another option. Raise, but not all in.

Reckon Cowboy was in a 'shove any ace mood' though, went for it and took it down - do tell.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
Congrats to those that chose FOLD! However Ed is only partially correct. I did get Ace happy and he turned over a bigger ace and held. I posted it bc when i looked up optimal range to call i was surprised.
So next question is what is optimal calling range?

Gidee Up!

 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 08:32 PM
(#12)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
I'll wait to answer...

but this is a bit of a trick question.

 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 02:21 AM
(#13)
JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Well c'mon...SOMEONE put up and answer!
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 05:23 AM
(#14)
EdinFreeMan's Avatar
Since: Feb 2010
Posts: 4,540
I don't think I understand the question!

If the question is 'what would be the optimal range of cards to hold to make the call'

I would say AA-KK, being the tightest possible range. But I don't think this is what Chris is asking.

More clarification please.

Ed from Edinburgh - EdinFreeMan
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 09:03 AM
(#15)
roomik17's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,556
BronzeStar
AK+
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 10:20 AM
(#16)
mtnestegg's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,336
I would say the optimal CALLING range would be KK+ only because you want the BB to either come along for the raise or shove over us. optimal reship range probably (whithout my stove handy)1010-QQ AQ+ AJs+? just a guess though really
By the way pokerstove if your watching..lol time for a pokerstove moble app..

Last edited by mtnestegg; Mon Oct 10, 2011 at 10:24 AM..
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 11:36 AM
(#17)
19honu62's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,770
Well, to clarify.... what are the hands you can call him off with?

ok since you chased them away JDean its time for you to tell us.
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 11:52 AM
(#18)
r0ck.carver's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 201
QQ KK AA AQs any AK haven't run it just off the top of my head...cheers
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 12:40 PM
(#19)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 19honu62 View Post
I did get Ace happy and he turned over a bigger ace and held.
Some people are sooooooo lucky!

This thread's great because I've been trying to learn more about the push/fold phase of things

The short stack ... I guess, weren't they *supposed* to be shoving with any two cards in their situation (10bb's, less than half the next shortest stack, already ITM, blinds about to hit, big stack's actively stealing blinds, etc, etc)? In which case A4o *should* have been far ahead of that 100% range (and with such a big stack, even if the short-stack doubles up, well they're so short, they're still short? But with this particular villian ... sometimes people don't play that way, eh? Maybe were they going to wait and hope for a better hand, even though the 3rd person was passive too (and therefore there wasn't a big chance they were going to knock themselves out first)?

So hard to know what to do sometimes And what with some of this push/fold stuff being kind of new to me, sometimes I've been getting a little tilted when a lot of hard work's gone into into building a big stack by taking chances, having to make tough decisions, etc, and then somebody super short who's got one foot out the door manages to double up and it's back to square one all over again

Then again, at the beginner levels, I guess everybody else is sort of at that same level of play, eh? A lot of wiggle room there to practice and try and learn and grow, without breaking the bank

Great thread!!! Thanks for the great discussion everybody - very helpful to be able to hear everybody's thoughts!!!
 
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Mon Oct 10, 2011, 12:47 PM
(#20)
!!!111Dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2010
Posts: 3,290
My initial thought was to fold on this as well.
That's in part to the read you had, and the stack sizes.
There's just better spots to pick when you have the table dominated, even if you're past the bubble.

With that said,
I think the range is actually quite a bit wider for the call.
Maybe 7's+ ~ QTs+
I could be wrong, but I've been rained in all weekend and haven't had enough yet.
So I could be a bit more than usual.
 

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