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Short stack shove in micro MTT

 
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Short stack shove in micro MTT - Sat Oct 08, 2011, 10:21 AM
(#1)
JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
Hello ,

One question . "Do micro MTT's carry any fold equity" ?

Recently I have played many MTT's , making short stack shoves (12BB or less & restealing with my resteal stacks 20BB approx') with mixed results . One thing I have noticed is large stacks (even ones that may have only limped) will call shoves with awful holdings , against a 'Tight' player , as though it is a matter of pride with them to suck out & donk someone to the rail .

Here is my most recent tourney exit , playing the hand correctly at this micro (10c , 55c & $1.10) level ?





Would it be better to play quite passively (even with our short stacks) until we have the nuts ? I know MTT tuition is adamant these plays should be made and , as I said - I have had mixed results recently .

Pokerstove reveals I had 50% equity in the hand , I have had far worse beats this week .

JARGON1977

Last edited by JARGON1977; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 10:43 AM..
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 12:16 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,814
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alot of the players, especially early in the tourney don't have a clue as to what fold equity is.

I'd have made a std raise and tried to play after the flop. Alot of the people in the small micros won't have a clue how to play after the flop, so you can outplay them then.... they just want to shove or fold.
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 02:26 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
Hello ,

One question . "Do micro MTT's carry any fold equity" ?
Certainly they do. Is it as MUCH FE for marginal hand shoves as events with more experienced players, no...but that does not mean there is NOT fold equity to be hand.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post
Recently I have played many MTT's , making short stack shoves (12BB or less & restealing with my resteal stacks 20BB approx') with mixed results . One thing I have noticed is large stacks (even ones that may have only limped) will call shoves with awful holdings , against a 'Tight' player , as though it is a matter of pride with them to suck out & donk someone to the rail .
So at least you "get" the difference between a re-steal stack size and one which really should have 1st in vig to get max FE...for those who do NOT know of a difference, here is a fast explaination:

When you are so short your stack represents a small portion of many other stacks at your table, OR when you are so short your stack will lay "good odds" (nearing, but not yet, 2 to 1 for the BB to call with blinds and antes in as well as your stack), you will not see a lot of benefit in shoving Any 2 Cards over even a limper. You really want to be the 1st "mover" into the pot. the "extra" money from that limp can be enough "reason" for 1 or more opponents to come along to "sheriff" your shove.

When you have a slightly LARGER stack (around 15 to 20BB usually), then you can consider launching so "re-steal" attempts over limpers and/or small raisers. Obviously, you PREFER to make these attempts with hands that have some value if they get called (like JTs/T9s etc) but they hands do not necessarily "need" to be premium if you are trying your re-steals versus very loose limping/raising opponents. BUT...

While the thought processes of opponents in micro-stakes games may not be as developed as those in higher stakes games, that does not mean they are non-existent (ok, at least not ALWAYS)...

Trying any sort of re-steal attempt versus very LARGE stacks is somewhat iffy. If that opponent is not really aware of the negative effects of chip loss for him, he may CALL light and spike lucky. His particular thought process may only "see": Oooooo! 2 from ITM, short stack shoves, I have more chips, so I cannot bust, I call!

Same deal goes with other short stacks who may have limped. Their thought process may not include the benefits of RAISING with their short stack, so they have stuck with their "normal" limpy-looky play style. when THEY see your re-steal, they may well wake up to the fact: Hey wait a minute! If I fold now I only have 8BB left. I have heard that you should shove all in if you are going to play with 8BB, so I think I'll call!

So your "best" targets for re-steals are usually those with similar sized medium type stacks. Those are the sorts who are not necessarily desperate enough yet to call extremely light, and they also do not have so many chips that they can double you and still keep going.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JARGON1977 View Post

Here is my most recent tourney exit , playing the hand correctly at this micro (10c , 55c & $1.10) level ?



Would it be better to play quite passively (even with our short stacks) until we have the nuts ? I know MTT tuition is adamant these plays should be made and , as I said - I have had mixed results recently .

Pokerstove reveals I had 50% equity in the hand , I have had far worse beats this week .

JARGON1977
Answer: you had 50% equity to TRIPLE...that should be 'nuff said.

If not, let me put it this way:

As long as you do not SUSPECT that the limp range of the of the first to enter big stack is not so strong as to consist of only hands that are a race or better than your AQ, then you really do NOT want to "play it standard" here...

A) you have a small enough stack that you cannot make a standard raise, AND a standard C-Bet then fold comfortable.

B) by jamming you are ENSURING that your decisions are "done". That means you WILL get to see all 5 cards, and have no chance to be bet off your hand on a missed flop thus losing a decent portion of your chips.

C) your jam also has the benefit of possibly TIGHTENING the call ranges of the "random" blind hands behind you. This means some better hands (like 22/33/44/55 etc) might find it HARD to call you, so by going all in immediately you improve the chance your AQ will hold if the first limper does call you.

(Note: only 2.6% of the hands are NOT at least a race versus your AQo. Do you WANT a BB hand to come along for a limp, or a STD raise, have him spike and you miss, then FOLD your AQ? when only about 2.6% of the time you need to "worry" that the BB has a better hand than AQ? Blech!)

Bottom line is Jargon, you got EXACTLY what you wanted here. But just because you make a good decision does NOT mean it will always bring a good RESULT. You can control your decisions, but you cannot control "luck".

If you try fiddling with your GOOD decisions in order to vainly control luck, the end result could easily be both BAD decisions AND bad luck.

Stick with the "right" decision, and in the long run things will sort themselves out.
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 02:50 PM
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JARGON1977's Avatar
Since: Jan 2011
Posts: 66
GREAT advice .

I need to hear it . To date , my poker style has been largely TIGHT and quite passive only getting aggresive when I wake up with a boss hand . I have been trying to get aggresion in my play , but being relatively new to aggresion I do not have a lot of history to balance the good with the bad and find myself awfully discouraged by bad beats & I now even feel compelled to try and not lose hands when I'm patronising the cash tables .

A crisis of confidence I'm sure , my bankroll is only ever at break even . I now hate to see my bankroll depleted and find I'm lacking the devilment to get value , only because I do not want to see TOPTOP beaten by TWOPAIR or TWOPAIR beaten by A SET etc .

JARGON1977

Last edited by JARGON1977; Sat Oct 08, 2011 at 02:52 PM..
 
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Sat Oct 08, 2011, 05:50 PM
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JDean's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,145
BronzeStar
Well, if you are leaning towards tight/passive play at the micro stakes, you CAN be a small winner...but only because your opponents will likely still make agregious MISTAKES to off-set your losses no matter what you show with your play.

If your eventual goal is to move up in stakes, and play against more aware players, then a tight passive line loses a LOT of its luster because those opponents will NOT keep making the same "dumb" mistakes against you over and over again...

It is FAR BETTER to get accustomed to a more aggressive style NOW (at the micro stakes), when the losses are far less in terms of actual cash value, and the practice can prepare you so much better when you face better opponents for larger stakes later on.

 

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